How Far Do you Push Your Loudness?

[2GooD Productions]

I try to peak at -0.3db(I found at -0.2db it can cause clips in the conversion to mp3) with an average RMS of -14 to -15db.

I know I could probably squeeze another 4db, but should I.

When I go above the -14 to -15 average RMS I can hear it start to sound course to the ears. I also like to maintain at least some dynamics, if I push the RMS up anymore I really lose the dynamic range.

This was really aimed at experienced mastering engineers. I hope you can help.
Formant, DP, God, Id love to hear from you guys.

What limits do you set yourself?

 

[ess vinyl]

I peak at 0db and my dynamics are good. Thats just my quick ghetto master. I might send it out to someone who knows what theyre doing and they still peak at 0db and it sounds 10/10

 

[UNORTHODOX]

You should have a limiter with intersample clipping (Ie Ozone). It'll keep your tracks from clipping period. Dont consider myself a mastering engineer, but I go -0.1, but only after alot of tactical minute cuts.

 

[2GooD Productions]

im really talking about average rms,not peak.

 

[dacalion]

I don't really put a formula on my work...I try to let my ears be the judge. I've heard songs that hit less avg rms and sound louder than songs that actually showed more (I ran into that a lot doing the radio show).

Most of the time, I'll find a professional mastered song of my liking to compare loudness and shoot for that mark without clipping.

 

[2GooD Productions]

When I look at cd mastered tracks from the 90's they seem to have an RMS of around -17db. But now I see tracks with an RMS of around -11 to -12db, and some I have seen with an RMS of -8db!!!
I rewired my speakers to eliminate a dodgy noise, and in doing so I changed my outputs on the Soundcard from +4v to an unboosted signal, now it sounds fucking sweet, its given me another 4db to add to my tracks. So now Im pushing my limit to -11db. All the bass I thought the speakers were lacking is there in full effect now.

Dac. Im trying to ghetto master our album so I need a formula/guideline so that all the tracks sound at the same level.

 

[2GooD Productions]

I don't really put a formula on my work...I try to let my ears be the judge. I've heard songs that hit less avg rms and sound louder than songs that actually showed more (I ran into that a lot doing the radio show).

I dont understand how that can be possible?

UNLESS.... The stations own compressor/limiter boosted the signal during broadcast. In which case a better mixed track of lower db would sound a lot better than a poorly mixed track of higher db.

 

[UNORTHODOX]

Just go with what sounds good for your tracks. Load up the best sounding track and have the others follow its lead. Why do you need preset numbers when you already know that its going to vary by engineer to engineer, project to project, song to song?

Remember, our ears react to curves differently. We are hardwired for certain freqs more than others. so to go off of mear RMS is misleading and will shortchange your efforts. You have to find the sweet spot for YOUR tracks knowing it will be in the -10 to -3 range loosly (Depending on your master Eq curve, Dynamics and arrangment)

Simply, find whats easiest to listen to for your music. (Or post a track and have someone help you)

 

[Medl4]

I let my ears do all the work. I pay little attention to numbers when dealing with sound. Close your eyes & enter the mix. That may or may not work for everyone though.

 

[Formant024]

First the usual bitching...

Without the proper monitoring conditions, anything you do means nothing. Trying to achieve the loudest master possible in shitty conditions just ends up in making compensations to make it sound good on your speakers, in your room. I should make this my disclaimer ...

Like said here, you work by ear and you can make things really, really loud untill it destroys the mix. How such destruction translates to you on deciding what loudness is good enough depends on the conditions of your listening/monitoring environment and the ability to make a proper judgement. You just have to understand when you crossed the line, regardless of what genre, but imo, thats easily recognized though lies in the very small margins.

I believe there's 2 sides to the loudness war.

1.)
Its okay to achieve a master that beats the loudness record as long as its not terrible to listen to. More than often these days its the way to meet the criteria you need to get recognition for your tracks.

This is purely a commercial perspective which has nothing on audiophile qualities one might rather hear when having a 50k hi-fi setup at home.

2.)
Its not okay, the reason people want things louder is because theyre to lazy to turn up the volume or because they have cheap amps in their system. They just dont make amps like they used to since its to expensive.

These days most amps are chip based and mostly that also implies that the headroom is far lower. Amps got smaller, cheaper and such amps are the most common type through which you hear music pretty much all day.

People that spend good money on their hi fi setup would mostly dislike any loudness because they hear the difference between a proper master song and one that is mastered purely for loudness.

---

I'm all about detail, i'd like to say that id work the lot to entertain the audiophiles but i'd say that account to roughly 10% of the listeners. So the ethics on loudness have become irrelevant, loudness sells but still depends on genre though those genres are not subjected on this forum.

---

@2Good; I think you're doing the right thing considering the setup you use. If you aim for your own mastering -0,1dB is the utmost but with subpar interfacing it can crap out on you but this can also happen with crappy plugins or gear (some of the best limiters only sound really well with just 2db reduction when they could do 6-7db).In the same way on the a subpar system i'd keep at -0.3dB aswell and just raise the volume on whatever im listening on untill i hear noise come up. I wont go for the loudest possible if the tools at hand wont let me or means i'd have to compromise to much.

In regards to using outboard gear and your i/o. Having to switch between +4dB/-10dB all depends on wether inputs/outputs are balanced or not.
In addition to this you have to check what the level are on in- and outputs. A class A brand piece of outboard could have a 26dBu output and the input it targets might only accept 22dBu.
Its all in the specs

 

[2GooD Productions]

@2Good; I think you're doing the right thing considering the setup you use. If you aim for your own mastering -0,1dB is the utmost but with subpar interfacing it can crap out on you but this can also happen with crappy plugins or gear (some of the best limiters only sound really well with just 2db reduction when they could do 6-7db).In the same way on the a subpar system i'd keep at -0.3dB aswell and just raise the volume on whatever im listening on untill i hear noise come up. I wont go for the loudest possible if the tools at hand wont let me or means i'd have to compromise to much.

In regards to using outboard gear and your i/o. Having to switch between +4dB/-10dB all depends on wether inputs/outputs are balanced or not.
In addition to this you have to check what the level are on in- and outputs. A class A brand piece of outboard could have a 26dBu output and the input it targets might only accept 22dBu.
Its all in the specs

The speakers do have a setting switch on the back to allow for +4db, but that wasnt switched on, and Im using unbalanced input/output. I really like the sound of the speakers now, they have a really good bass representation, and have stopped using the little sub I had set up.

 

[thegoldynchylde]

-0.3 is industry standard. Its all about the mastering. You master mastering and you should be good.

Izone 5, T-racks, Izotope nectar and waves mercury bundle a get you right

check out some work @

www.thegoldynchylde.com

 

[deafproofbeats]

I try to peak at -0.3db(I found at -0.2db it can cause clips in the conversion to mp3) with an average RMS of -14 to -15db.

I know I could probably squeeze another 4db, but should I.

When I go above the -14 to -15 average RMS I can hear it start to sound course to the ears. I also like to maintain at least some dynamics, if I push the RMS up anymore I really lose the dynamic range.

This was really aimed at experienced mastering engineers. I hope you can help.
Formant, DP, God, Id love to hear from you guys.

What limits do you set yourself?

If I'm submitting to an Industry project I cut off at -3db - If I'm uploading to sell it on my website I cut off at -1db (people seem to think the LOUDER the BETTER when they are looking to buy beats online). I'm by no means an authority on mastering, just telling you what works for me in different situations...

 

[God]

You can push the A-weighted RMS to -8db, but there will be clipping and distortion. Oasis' "Some Might Say" and some of Metallica's songs are in this range. Personally, I try to push them to be as loud as possible without compromising the quality of the sound.

Honestly, if you're doing it at home, just try to make it sound good. If you want to nitpick mastering engineering, you need the right room, equipment and environment. Just pay some dude to do the mastering for you. Real mastering is a true art and you can seriously mess up your mix.

I would say focus on having the tightest mix possible and then "ghetto master" to your ear's desire, but make sure to A/B test on a variety of speakers including your car speakers. If your mix is tight, then the mastering engineer will be able to make it sound that much better. If your mix sounds like crap-- you can't polish a turd.

 

[2GooD Productions]

You can push the A-weighted RMS to -8db, but there will be clipping and distortion. Oasis' "Some Might Say" and some of Metallica's songs are in this range. Personally, I try to push them to be as loud as possible without compromising the quality of the sound.

Honestly, if you're doing it at home, just try to make it sound good. If you want to nitpick mastering engineering, you need the right room, equipment and environment. Just pay some dude to do the mastering for you. Real mastering is a true art and you can seriously mess up your mix.

I would say focus on having the tightest mix possible and then "ghetto master" to your ear's desire, but make sure to A/B test on a variety of speakers including your car speakers. If your mix is tight, then the mastering engineer will be able to make it sound that much better. If your mix sounds like crap-- you can't polish a turd.

After mixing the album 4 or 5 times and attempting to master in an untreated environment I decided to talk my business partner in to getting it mastered properly. That was 3 months ago, still waiting.
I have really learned a lot more about mixing and mastering the past year, my ears have improved drastically, but without the right room treatment its a waste of time. IMO.

 

[God]

After mixing the album 4 or 5 times and attempting to master in an untreated environment I decided to talk my business partner in to getting it mastered properly. That was 3 months ago, still waiting.
I have really learned a lot more about mixing and mastering the past year, my ears have improved drastically, but without the right room treatment its a waste of time. IMO.

Oh wow, I thought you were mastering a song for yourself or a hobby project where the final outcome doesn't really matter.

From the sound of it, you have a business partner and this is a serious project. You need to have it mastered by a professional if you're trying to sell them or shop it around. Although there may be a little more lineancy in shopping the song, since they don't really expect the song to be mastered -- although it helps. I guess I don't understand the focus of the project entirely.

 

[2GooD Productions]

I joined my old school friends reggae sound system/music studio. He had a falling out with his last producer so i said id do the production. I remade the music to all the songs that have never been released. And recorded/produced some new ones. Decided to do a compilation as there are quite a few artists and various genres. We want this to be a proper barcoded release and commercially viable. Having read your advice in the past I thought the product would be taken more seriously if the product was already finished and packaged and ready to go. Not only the product would be taken more seriously, I think we will be too.

 

[God]

@2Good - So are you releasing it yourselves or are you trying to release it through an intermediary? (like a label or some other entity)

Any final release to the public should be mastered. If you can't get it sounding good, you'll need help from a professional mastering engineer.

 

[2GooD Productions]

the tracks sound pretty good already from the mixing, the mastering will be done by a professional with many years experience going back to the vinyl days.
We are trying to release it on our own. But as soon as the album was finished we hit financial problems.
Im hoping that the presentation and quality of the album will impress distributors and maybe some investors to help take the album to the next level, hopefully on the big name supermarket shelves. Its a pretty diverse album with reggae, bashment, hip hop & house. I just hope its not too diverse. I really want to stand out from all the other people trying to do the same thing, thats why I keep thinking about the time you mentioned the guy that sent his demo and it was matched with his press pack and website and all the other stuff he did alone before even getting to the "presentation of demo" stage. My thought pattern is that the less a major distributor(if they ever decide to pick it up) has to do to get the product to market, then surely that helps our cause.
My fear is that major distro cost major cash, so hence the seeking of investors.
My biggest failure has always been publicity and promo. I would like to reverse that before Im really too old and out of touch to keep this up.

 

[God]

the tracks sound pretty good already from the mixing, the mastering will be done by a professional with many years experience going back to the vinyl days.
We are trying to release it on our own. But as soon as the album was finished we hit financial problems.
Im hoping that the presentation and quality of the album will impress distributors and maybe some investors to help take the album to the next level, hopefully on the big name supermarket shelves. Its a pretty diverse album with reggae, bashment, hip hop & house. I just hope its not too diverse. I really want to stand out from all the other people trying to do the same thing, thats why I keep thinking about the time you mentioned the guy that sent his demo and it was matched with his press pack and website and all the other stuff he did alone before even getting to the "presentation of demo" stage. My thought pattern is that the less a major distributor(if they ever decide to pick it up) has to do to get the product to market, then surely that helps our cause.
My fear is that major distro cost major cash, so hence the seeking of investors.
My biggest failure has always been publicity and promo. I would like to reverse that before Im really too old and out of touch to keep this up.

How is this going?