Ethics

[JPeg]

True, i am detracting from what i was trying to get across, none of this was supose to sound so aggressive, i am trying to create a discusion. Basically i feel sort of violated by the way hip hop production has changed.......

I dig up my drums samples ect. because i feel like its the mark of a good producer and its part of hip hop. Theses days people buy reissuses and buy drums off the internet. It feels disrespectful to me because it makes it too easy. Synth producers are a dime a dozen and are rarly memerable (Think of your influences they were beat diggers, think of classic hiphop tracks they were made ground up from vinly). not to say that all are void of any talent what so ever. I like Marks beats, I like Classics beats, and yes i even like Truths beats. Basicly i want to know if it bothers anyone at all that hip hop production takes so little effort anymore.
I mean in a vacum, what sounds more respectable to you buying prepacked sound for you to put together, or to search and learn and progress toward sounds that can be arranged.

I got a synth but I mostly flip samples and yes ill cop re-issues cos i aint got money to waste on some over-priced tatty records.

I also cop drum CD's off the web and download breaks too, but this is still requires effort and still requires a good ear to put music together.

u need to adjust to different methods cos when sampling 1st started maybe cats back then were complaining that u should only use records, and if the dudes who pioneered sampling listened to them then hip hop would not have developed its early 90's golden era.

 

[Aminimity]

this thread while devoid of educational worth has had great entertainment value. thx guys !!

..................................................

 

[brooklynstyle]

I dont know what's wrong with u people. What difference does it make if it was sampled or played if it's banging. I mean i dont give a fuck if someone sampled or not as long as their shit is banging. I myself sample a lot. I mean I do it cuz i love the way it sounds, it sounds original, sounds real and has this feeling to it. I however love lil jon beats and they r not sampled. I love just blaze beats and some of them r not sampled. It also depends what kinna hip hop gets u going, or rather what artists. I love talib kweli, common, mof def, the roots, etc so I guess i'm more underground cat and thats why i like sampled beats and I feel them more. But i work with cats that make club beats and i cant put them down and cant hate on them cuz it aint sampled. ...

 

[mr mello]

If You want to keep it PURE and TRUE then you should be looping breaks on your turntables while some emcee says EVERYBODY IN THE HOUSE SAY YEAH.

 

[mono]

hehe i love these cats being like "yo man, i dont use samples, i want to create my owwwn shit",
but in effect they just tooo lazy with digging and they cant flip it

 

[Cold Truth]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

yeah, you got me, yup, i prefer to compose my own melodies fdrom scratch because i am too lazy to go digging, absolutely, your right..... wow, you caught me, here i thuoght i just loved to play the keys, loved to create my own patterns, loved to arrange and compose from nothing to create something.

too lazy to learn how to play their own instruments, too lazy to practice parts, to lazy to learn how to create arrangments from scratch, etc, etc,....you could say, no, they would rather steal the work of someone else, some other engineers mix, some other mastering sweets compression, not to mention all of the schooling and countless hours in their lab, so that the diggers could reap the benifits of taking an already great composition and "making their own" out of it.

*please*

i know its hard for some of you to swallow, BUT..... everyone is different, everyone does their own thing, everyone has their own methods and passions and whatnot, and so ya'll are waisting time with your annoying little rants.

some people and their BS blanket statements.

 

[mono]

you got me wrong man.
didnt mean to say that making synthbeats or playing instruments is wack.
did i say that ?
but there ARE those cats, i swear.
fat keyboards, 1000+$ synthies, pro equipment, but not able to flip a sample right !

 

[Cold Truth]

yes, they are "there",

but to be honest, those are two different skills completely. two different methods, and NOT being able to do one or the other makes ZERO difference.

so i'm not the best at flippin samples, big deal. i compose circles around most people; why do i need to be able to flip a sample? i dont really, truly, find joy in it. i dont feel motivated by that. your talking like that somehow diminishes my skills and talents.... "all these keys and gear, but they cant flip a sample"... lol...ok.. thats like sayin, "shaq can dunk and bang and post people up and all that, but he aint even got a crossover" its a whole different game... dude aint a guard, hes a center, and he does what centers are supossed to do. he plays to his strengths. does that make him any less of a dominating player? HELL and NO. right'? its the same exact thing. i'm a composer; i build chords and melodies and layers and arrangements from the ground up. thats what i do, thats my identity as a producer. i do not sample. i am not a sampler. that isnt what drives me, that aint what im built for. i am, however, built for creating from scratch, not on some bs pride steeze, its just what i gravitated towards and YEAH I'D SAY I AM PRETTY GOOD AT IT. you tellin me i aint nice simply cause i cant flip a sample all that well? if you were to judge me by my sampling, then yeah, but it aint my steeze. you cant coompare a man against something that he dont do.

 

[mono]

its a matter of tastes isnt it, and therefore
any quarrel is senseless. but, as for me, the "average" producer
aint got the skills to match with a chet baker piano roll or
a womack guitar loop. thats why insight, premo or pete rock beats
are always makin me nuts, while synthproductions do only occasionally.

 

[hobgoblin]

Do you download?

Anyone here download songs from the internet and sample them? You'd be surprised how many people internet dig these days....

 

[Paul_Caruso]

That's pretty much all I do, I do sample off wax but mainly the way I discover samples is when I'm at my computer. Winamp is on shuffle and a track comes up and I think - I can sample that. I have a pad and pen next to my computer and everytime a song comes on I make a note. When it's time to make a beat I check the pad and get going. I know people don't like the idea of sampling something you don't own and that part of the challenge is to find the records but I don't know, music is music to me.

Same as production, before I got turntables or started making beats (which I haven't been doing for that long really) I played guitar for years. As a 'musician' (I don't really consider myself one) I see it as easy to just play something into the computer or whatever, there's less of a challenge than thinking of what you're trying to say and then trying to find the sample. Just like Premier's choruses, wouldn't it just be easier for him to get guru to say the lines? It sounds good and is more of a challenge to piece together the phrases other people have said.

I'm not belittling the 'composers' (although everyone's composing really,) I'm just talking about what I like. Although recently I have been playing in parts alongside the samples.

People saying that it's no big thing to just use the music that other people have put the effort into composing and playing is stupid. Where do you draw the line?

They didn't make the instruments or the strings/reeds etc. so wasn't that a bit lazy? They just bought someone elses instrument and used it? I mean yeah, they did use it in a way that people appreciated but that doesn't count for shit.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really, this shit doesn't keep me awake at night - I'm just throwing ideas out.

 

[Cold Truth]

um the thing is, there doesnt NEED to be a devils advocate position- and yes i played the part myself in this very thread. my point is, there is no need to worry about how the next man makes his music. who cares........ i just get irritated with these purist, self appointed "guardians" of the sacred cow that is sampling within hip hop. it isnt dying, it isnt going anywhere, and if keyboards and synths are some "impure" form of the art, then take that up with, oh, say, RUN DMC, or, you know, WHODINI, or, uh, AFRIKAQ BAMBAATA, or maybe, uh..i dont know..........., any number of pioneers and icons who have used synths heavily and PROMINANTLY in their production. its an absolutely POINTLESS and FRUITLESS argument.

and YES this IS one debate where i am trying to get people to see it MY way because yes i do believe my view here is the most PRODUCTIVE- if not correct- view, and that view, to sum it up, is this:

YOU should make YOUR music the way that YOU want to.

early hip hop recordings used live instrumentation (rappers delight, anyone?) to interpolate other songs "good times, anyone?) so if we want to be super anal and technical, you aint making "real" hip hop unless you are REPLAYING with LIVE instruments a recording written, performed, recorded, and engineered by other people.

so where does that leave all the sample based arguments? does selective memory and revised history take precedence with this whole debate?

the truth is that when we start putting limits on what is "real" hip hop and what isnt, we limit its ability to change and thrive and grow and LIVE because i got news for alot of you that will break your feeble little hearts once you finally come to grips with it. its not 1988, its not 1994, and its not 1998. they arent coming back, and those of you who think you are preserving/saving hip hop by keeping a deathgrip on sounds and styles long since past,, by trying to keep doing "that original" hip hop, you are doing more to kill it then anyone else.

you think the nba would be much fun to watch today with no 3 point line, no dunking allowed, butt-hugging shorts, and 6"9 centers? you think NFL players would survive 2 quarters wearing those old pop-on helmets with no face masks? how bout if they never let blacks play baseball, in the majors, with their white counterparts? it started out with white guys and blacks werent allowed, so why let them play? it wasnt that way in the beginning. imagine if video game technology stopped with Colecovision. no halo 2 marathons or GTA San Andreas for you, now would there?

the only reason why they used muskets instead of AK-47's in the revolutionary war was because...? bingo! THEY DIDNT HAVE THEM YET.

change is a good thing, ideas evolve, and things change... so quit trippin off those who prefer to do things their own way just because you prefer to do it another.

 

[mono]

agree with you guys, theres no limits, dope is dope.
i love them ty beats from the last lp, even though it was synthie stuff,
and i consider myself a hardcore purist. but i wont go as far as letting me
call a stylefascist

rock on witcha broke asses!

 

[hobgoblin]

although from time to time i do download for specific samples i might need, IMO there really is nothing like going down the local car boot sale and digging for some records!

 

[classic]

while purists argue over which is better......

shit i can do both

Flip a sample
or compose on that ass

And if im feeling frisky , i will flip a sample and compose on top of it, or replay a sample, or play my own melody chop it and flip it like it was straight off vinyal

How u like them apples.... lol

class..

 

[Haze47]

right....

im my eyes i dont really give a SHIT where the sound comes from AS LONG AS IT IS FUCKING HOT, now i know sometimes i myself, preach the purist propaganda as well, but the pioneers of the ART are basically dead, as a result we should move on, im damn happy i dont make beats like RZA (i didnt just say that did i?) because the drum changes are wack, but we all love him really. Im not really feeling internet digging, purely because of the loss of sound quality with an mp3 and the fact the several million cats also have that sample. i do understand this thread, but also i dont. For example where do the purists sit in regards the "CD BREAKS" not as in a sample cd but for example, I HAD TO HAVE THE FUNKY DRUMMER AND AMEN BREAK, so i bought the cds, what does that make me? even though i dig all my other samples? And for te synthies, ESPECIALLY COLD, do you possess your style as a result of trying em all? for me i used to use pretty much all synths (check the bottom of my old soundclick www.soundclick.com/haze47) but when i got nto drum breaks and "dusty" samples, you notice the difference. Not always in sound, (look at prodigy, a lot of his drums are softsyth, but they still sound real and heavy) but in overall output, the air in the samples as dbs to your overall mix, and defo gives it a phatt warmth. As a result, if i do make computer drums, i will sample the air on a dusty track and mix it onto the drum sample.i dunno if this is wierd. but if you bringing heat, you bringing heat regardless...


peeeeeeeeeeace

 

[mono]

Im not really feeling internet digging, purely because of the loss of sound quality with an mp3 and the fact the several million cats also have that sample.

wheres the difference. if you buy your waxes at the store, several million cats might have it from the internet as well. (?)
its a great oportunity to get loads of fantastic records in great condition.
well, the kbps rate for an mp3 to sample has to be 192 MINIMUM (for me), but most jazz and funk rippers rip their shit in 256 or 320 anyway.
i started doing this since i had to leave my whole setup @home when i moved here, my mk and my asr. and as long as i wont be able to get it, ill be makin fat beats with mp3s and cool edit.

do we agree that the medium doesnt count, wether its mpc,mp3,fruityloops,sp12 or a stinky music maker ? theres a much mucho more importante factor

apart fromthat your totaly right. a filthy sample from wax is the hottest ingridient to be on a beat.

 

[Cold Truth]

i sampled for 3 years before i made the switch to all synths, and for maybe 6 months i overlapped the two and composed on top of the samples.

for the record, and i have said it SEVERAL times, i love the sound of sampled beats and all my favorite producers are very sample heavy......

my stance as a composing producer (yes, i KNOW you can compose with samples, yada yada yada, but you know what i mean) s just that that is what drives me and motivates me, i enjoy it far more then sampling. i am also better at that then i am sampling, and it is my preffered method. my entire argument has always been that people should simply do what they feel is best for them... i have no qualms about which is "better" and have neevr argued that synths and not sampling is "better" then sampling becasue to me a dope beat is a dope beat and great music always wins with me, PERIOD. the reason i argue this so adamantly is that i am siiiiick and tiiired of people and their little purist, "anti-everything but loops and breaks off of rare vinyl" rants. i feel like, let em do me; stop trying to tell me why it isnt "real" hip hop or whatever and do what makes you happy......... so yeah i defend my position as a non-sampling cat who doesnt give a rats how anyone else gets down- i just want to hear dope music.

 

[Haze47]

fair play mate, im sorry if i came across a person who has, "anti-everything but loops and breaks of rare vinyl" i really feel live hip hop band, acid jazz, jazz, funk and i regularily go to see those types of people live. they know what they are goind, the levels are right, and you dont have to rely on the almost always battered old PAs that most clubs have. Jaylibs the Red is one of my fav tracks, and the bass onthat is purely synth. As i said as well in regards to drums i already mentioned that liam howletts drums where heavy, but coming from a fairly self taught background, and not possessing MAXIMISING software, adding drum loops give MY mixes a louder db output, this is surely because of the UNIQUE reverb that can never ever ever be created again of the studio the original was recorded in. i am not an advocate of preaching what hip hop is to people, as i hate it being preached to me. i also just wanna hear dope music, and i WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with the notion that you CANNOT REALLY COMPOSE WITH SAMPLES loops especially, and most people are loop diggers lets be honest. By saying you compose with samples is like saying a DJ is a composer, when they are not. Sample driven hip hop is like very good mixing, especially if you are working with wax.

 

[mr mello]

lBy saying you compose with samples is like saying a DJ is a composer, when they are not. Sample driven hip hop is like very good mixing, especially if you are working with wax.

Thats not true, sometimes I just sample one note and I make chords using that note and thats difficult cause you cant count half tones and stuff like that so have to use your ear.

Poeple sample differently, Some poeple dig for loops, some poeple grab bits and pieces.

in any case its the end product that counts.

I dont think that I can get myself to sample of the internet. I just like records too much.