when does sampling = stealing?

[Equality 7-2521]

sometimes i get a loop and just chop it short and add something at the end or chop into bits and rearenge it to make it slightly different. sometimes i dont chop it and just loop it

my brother was accusing me of "not really making my own music"
i told him to fuck off....since im comfortable with what i do but i want some more view points

How much chopping of a sample loop do you think you have to do for it to be concidered not stealing?????

eg...must it be unrecognisable, chopped down to each individual note, altered slightly or what???

 

[Cold Truth]

its stealing if you make money off of it and the original artist doent get their royalty, basically. it is up to you how you want to go with that.

this issue is really in the eye of the beholder. we can debate its merits forever. just make what you are comfortable making! imho, if the final product sounds good, makes you happy, and works, do it....

*on a side note, lets not ruin this mans question with "i dont sample" rants. if you dont have an answer to the actual question ,do us all a favor and dont post.

 

[soundboy2]

Originally posted by Truth Told
its stealing if you make money off of it and the original artist doent get their royalty, basically. it is up to you how you want to go with that.

XACTLY!!! YOU LIVED UP TO YOUR NAME WITH THAT ONE,

 

[JPeg]

its stealing when u loop up something with the drums and change ups, without any modifications.

 

[Cold Truth]

no its not; that isnt "stealing" at all. that is just laziness! sometimes a straight loop is perfect for what you need. stealing is not giving the original artist their money! a straight loop with drums and no change ups is just a preference, but that wouldnt make it stealing. thats a different issue alltogether.

 

[jamcity]

if it's not your loop...always always give credit to the creator....

now if you want to be original....this is what i do...

if you have a drum machine or drum modulater...create a pattern and convert it to wave file...then tweak it with your heart desire. You'd be surprise what you'd end up...

jamcity

 

[Shonsteez]

Hey

What about tha tall tell of tha "20 Second Rule"...?
Ive heard it before but i am still in doubt if it really is legit?

It goes basically like:
If you only sample 20 seconds or less than its copyright free?


Im having a hard time believing it.




Steeze



P.S.

When sampling:
I like to only sample individual drum hits - "Not entire loops"....I want to actually create something still, just with my own chosen palet so to speak.
Also...When sampling a various riff or sound - I always like to keep it generally short as possible and manipulate as much as i can with FX and also move around tha "ending or start positions" to get a whole different end product that way.


I personally love sampling even if it is stealing - I just try to do it tastefully while still aplying as much of own creativity as possible.(You never want to lose that)

 

[Copenhagen]

Back when I heard that story, it was the "6 seconds rule"...but I've been told by somebody in the industry, no sample is copyright free no matter the amount of seconds, if they can tell what source you used, you're screwed...

 

[vitaminman]

Hey,

At the school where I work, they play out music between classes across the PA system to an audience of 2800 students...when I questioned them about it, their reply was "we can do it because we're using less than 30 seconds of each song".

Now, I know that the school isn't making any profits off playing old Dan Fogelberg tracks to warn students that they have 30 seconds to get to class, but if I'm not mistaken most copyrights prevent people from copying and making public broadcasts without express written consent from the record company (or lawyers, or publishers, or artists, or whoever).

It's my personal belief that if you sample something that is copyrighted without permission, even if it's only a second long, you are breaking the law.

No, I'm not a lawyer; just very cautious.

Nick

 

[Cold Truth]

you are only breaking the law when you use it for financila gain; it is along the same lines as burning a cd that you already own the tape to, or making a backup copy for your own use. when you sell it, or give it away to another person without the prior writtne consent, then it becomes illegal.

 

[WingsOfAnAngel]

My 2 Cents:
Sampling does not equal stealing. Even if you use a complete (untouched) loop, it ain't stealing. And why?
If you make your own music using loops, it's your arrangment aka your music. As a music collector\crate digger who has been into music (and making music) for MANY MANY years, i can honestly say that sampling is the best thing that happened to the field of music production.
Taking that obscure drum loop from a dusty big band record (Let's say that it's a Sammy Nestico lp) and combining it with a piano loop taken from Joe Chambers' record (am i talking about the much-sampled 'mind rain'? :dance is truly magical.
With sampling, we (the producers) have the means to create something new out of old - we work in the same way as the cook does.
We takes odds and ends and make something out of it.
People can say that it ain't real music making or that it's stealing, but why should we care?
We know that what we do is enchanting, do we?

 

[Dj Dezerk]

hi its simple as this fellows they make drum macines ,keyboards,and software.im gonna sample.what the hell they make them for.i really hate that it so hard to clear a sample.but thats all u hear on the radio these days. by listening to sample over the years. i have learned about playing keys and staying in key with i sample or with out one.so the hell what everyone says do u.famous words by dmx.holla

 

[Equality 7-2521]

first of all...thanks for replies....very interesting

ok...... so it sounds like clearing samples and giving credit to those you sampled are the things which make sampling legit...at least in the lagal sense.....i agree 100%

BUT

my question was more related to the musical purity of a sampler.

my brother said "your not actually making your own music"

i dont think he was worried about me getting sued but was more trying to tell me that "your not a REAL musician"...."why dont you play all your own instruments"...sorta thing

what do we all think about THAT?

 

[Craig Gantt]

As somebody with not much experience with making music I can tell ya that 99% of the people that youre making the music for (audience) really wouldnt know if you sampled (and prolly wouldnt care if you did) as for if is makin music or not I think it is you can sample a drum loop and make everything else from scratch then to me youre being orginal and creating your own music.

 

[DJ Excellence]

guys : read my quote....

 

[Equality 7-2521]

closer to dj skills than musician skills........hmmmmmm

 

[lion-ucs]

first of all...thanks for replies....very interesting

ok...... so it sounds like clearing samples and giving credit to those you sampled are the things which make sampling legit...at least in the lagal sense.....i agree 100%

BUT

my question was more related to the musical purity of a sampler.

my brother said "your not actually making your own music"

i dont think he was worried about me getting sued but was more trying to tell me that "your not a REAL musician"...."why dont you play all your own instruments"...sorta thing

what do we all think about THAT?

Well, no you're not a musician.
A musician actually plays an instrument(s) as a profession
Now you may have a keyboard, but you load other samples into it and what not, so you're not just playing piano on your keyboard -- you're a compser (some ppl).
Musicians usually play in front of a live audience as well, although that doesnt nessarily make up the classification of a musician.

So, no. Most of us aren't musicians, we're BeatMakers or all out Producers. Some of us compose. Seems like most of us sample -- hell, like 80+% of all hip-hop is sampled.

The musical purity of a sampler shouldn't even be in question (Thats like questioning the musical purity of a drummer that uses a Yamaha DTXreme set, instead of a traditional analogue drum set), sampling is just another form. There is still respect for the original. But people are always going to have something negative to say about everything, so its like: 'whatever' just keep doing what you're doing...

(yea, yea, I know just brought this back to life from like 3 years ago. XD)

 

[karlman]

[deleted]

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Here goes my 2 cents....this is how you decide whether you really have integrity or if you dont respect work that really, in essence and technically is not yours....since a hip hop producer really in the sense of pure sampling is not a musician in the traditional sense then you have to use that to justify the pure theft aspect of producing as a samplist using existing pieces and phrases, breaks etc.., especially segments that form the overall melody and mood of your so called "new work" its hard to escape the fact that the music no matter how much or little was not produced by you, even though the dopeness factor of flipping transcends that for the listener...its hard to look at it in any other light if you are honest about doing it.....drum loops are the backbone too, any of the music like Alchemist or anyone you consider hot can program patterns but for the most part they have borrowed a drummer via loop (chopped it very little) and in essence that is a big part of the feel of a lot of swing in tracks...

All Sampling without any permission is stealing, plain and simple end of discussion especially if used it to line your own pockets and the originators of the sample got nothing or any notice that you used their blood, sweat, studio time and practice to put some gas in your car or cop some new monitors.

but if you look at musicians from the jazz era and so forth stealing styles and riffs etc and slightly modifying them has always existed....so I will help you wipe the guilt from your conscious by bringing that to light....but in reality musicians should always respect anothers work just as a writer should not plagiarize work that is not their own....

suppose you put together a dope song and it sort of blew, but then some cat took your idea or work and then resampled that original piece you did, I think you will be quite upset...and whoever says they wouldnt be they're lying....

is it ethical ?....well not really
is it the only way hip hop can be done ?....IMO yes
is it going to stop ?....No

 

[Beatz 101]

if its hot then its hot.

Im NOT gonna ruin a great loop cuz i dont wanna feel guilty.


Right now i cant pay somebodies estate to clear samples, and they wouldnt care either cuz i got no money to give them. So if im stealing, whateva. I respect the original artist, but respect my ends.

I can get real technical and chop it up. Or if the loop is ill, i use a whole loop. If u wanna discredit me as an artist just cuz i did that, f_ck u. We doin' hiphop music.

As for not composing all my own sounds. U tell me somebody who can afford to... And a Motif ES is just sounds from actual instruments U DIDNT PLAY, and sounds the manufacturer BOUGHT or CREATED then digitized so u can use.

U wanna get in a band and play live...? Its cool, but that aint tradition. Its all hiphop, but i do a new yet traditional sound of hiphop. If u cant respect that, then u dont respect hiphop in general.