Vocal recordings

[thedreampolice]

Just to clear up any confusion, recording at low levels is a bad idea at any bit rate. It will give your recording more noise and all kinds of other problems. 16bit/24bit whatever record as hot as you can. The only difference is that 16bit is not very forgiving about peaks.

"I've recorded in Sonar 6 & 7 (which I like most), Cubase, and protools and the sound is the same on all of them"

They actually do sound different, at Sweetwater we did extensive test's between PT, Cubase, Sonar, and a few others we actually flipped the phase on mix's to see what would come through and Cubase and Pro tools mixs engine actually handle things totally differently I was amazed at this, now did one sound better over the other? No I don't really think so. But they are just a different as mixing with totally different mixers.

 

[Macky]

Just to clear up any confusion, recording at low levels is a bad idea at any bit rate. It will give your recording more noise and all kinds of other problems. 16bit/24bit whatever record as hot as you can. The only difference is that 16bit is not very forgiving about peaks.

"I've recorded in Sonar 6 & 7 (which I like most), Cubase, and protools and the sound is the same on all of them"

They actually do sound different, at Sweetwater we did extensive test's between PT, Cubase, Sonar, and a few others we actually flipped the phase on mix's to see what would come through and Cubase and Pro tools mixs engine actually handle things totally differently I was amazed at this, now did one sound better over the other? No I don't really think so. But they are just a different as mixing with totally different mixers.

Ill turn to be an ass here i know and im sorry.
Im audio/mastering engineer with 15 years music expiriance and what u are saying isn't true. Nothing u said actually...

First
"It will give your recording more noise and all kinds of other problems. 16bit/24bit whatever record as hot as you can"

Since my eng is bad ill just copy part of one article

"Bit Depth. Ok, this is the gospel according to Tweak! Use 24 bit for every recording if you have this feature. I was a believer for the past decade that 16 bit was the way to go and I have absolutely changed my mind. No matter of what you are recording this is true. If you have a nice mic, a very good preamp and a clean audio system and are recording highly dynamic instruments such as acoustic guitars, classical orchestras, acapella vocals, the difference will be there. But! Its not that 24 bits of data makes the sound better. It actually does not. What is does is give your audio more room to breathe in the numeric realm of digital audio. Remember, we are talking about numbers, calculations, not analog waveforms. With 24 bits of data demarcing your recording medium, its is possible to record extremely dynamic music, with very quiet soft passages and extraordinary loud passages. Quiet passages will be less likely struggling to stay above the noise floor on your system. One can record with no compression. ----------------You can record at lower levels, with more headroom. This ensures that the occasional peak is not truncated at the top and it will give converters some room the breathe. Because you are not pushing the limits of your bandwidth, your instruments will sound clearer, and the vocals may sound "cleaner", the song will mix better and there will be less noise.------------------ So its not that 24 bit recordings sound better. In fact they may sound just as bad or worse than 16 bit. But 24 bits gives the recordist a noise floor and headroom to create an excellent recording. Its a tool, and in the right hand, it can blow you away, audio wise."

Second

I was involved in making of Ardour recording software
http://ardour.org/

And now ur telling me after all my 1s and 0s explanations u can here the difference? lol cmon man

Infact fine. How did u test those software? I mean what was recorded and what hardware (recording chain) did u use?

 

[UNORTHODOX]

LMAO I actually used those words to be kinda funny but I was asking for it (Thanks shonsteez) I got that info in a mastering discussion over at gearslutz. This isnt analouge, theirs no noise floor (-70db I think). recording at -12 or even 20 aint shit now. Have you tried it? What levels are you using?

 

[thedreampolice]

I never disagreed with anything you said. But I will say if your level is not overall hot enough your recording will suck and will be noisy. Go try it if you disagree. yes 24bits gives you more headroom, everything you said is dead on. But most of the people on this board are not recording things with huge swings in dynamics. The "Sound" of most hip hop vocals is really hot recordings and very compressed.

Second I love Ardour nice work! In fact I wrote this article about it. http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/270/Audio-Production-Tools-for-Linux.aspx

I was just as surprised at the results of the results of the test BTW Have you heard of Sweewater?

At any rate the test was actually very simple. We took a finished mix and put it on two stereo tracks in every DAW, then we flipped the phase on one track. If every mix bus would be neutral and the same than you would hear nothing right? 100% phase cancellation. Does this make sense? But that is not at all what happened. We found that things came through the and not only that but each DAW different parts of the mix came through. In fact Cubase/Nuendo was had the most of the mix come through overall. So in fact the Cuabse/Nuendo mix engine has the most coloration. Again I don't think it makes one DAW better than the other, I actually Love Nuendo. But this proves they are in fact different.

Also don't worry I do not think you are an ass at all. And this is great discussion!

I have been a recording engineer forever and have a masters degree from Berklee college of music in music technology and production. See details here http://www.chrisscheidies.com/?q=node/2
So I am no slouch, but I am also no mastering engineer.

Are you still involved in Ardour? I would love to help with it in any way possible.

Does this clear everything up?

 

[Macky]

I never disagreed with anything you said. But I will say if your level is not overall hot enough your recording will suck and will be noisy. Go try it if you disagree. yes 24bits gives you more headroom, everything you said is dead on. But most of the people on this board are not recording things with huge swings in dynamics. The "Sound" of most hip hop vocals is really hot recordings and very compressed.

Second I love Ardour nice work! In fact I wrote this article about it. http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/270/Audio-Production-Tools-for-Linux.aspx

I was just as surprised at the results of the results of the test BTW Have you heard of Sweewater?

At any rate the test was actually very simple. We took a finished mix and put it on two stereo tracks in every DAW, then we flipped the phase on one track. If every mix bus would be neutral and the same than you would hear nothing right? 100% phase cancellation. Does this make sense? But that is not at all what happened. We found that things came through the and not only that but each DAW different parts of the mix came through. In fact Cubase/Nuendo was had the most of the mix come through overall. So in fact the Cuabse/Nuendo mix engine has the most coloration. Again I don't think it makes one DAW better than the other, I actually Love Nuendo. But this proves they are in fact different.

Also don't worry I do not think you are an ass at all. And this is great discussion!

I have been a recording engineer forever and have a masters degree from Berklee college of music in music technology and production. See details here http://www.chrisscheidies.com/?q=node/2
So I am no slouch, but I am also no mastering engineer.

Are you still involved in Ardour? I would love to help with it in any way possible.

Does this clear everything up?

Yeah i was talking bout recording here... See if u record with any software nomather how different engine they have saved recording will sound totally same.
I can "see" it could be different when u test it with finished mix. My eng dont allow me to to explain so ill not even try but it is possible in that situation i agree. But i was talking bout recordings not engines or anything like that...

Second yeah i agree with rap vocal recordings. I mean i don't but yeah thats how u should record (newbies especially) vocals.

And no i was involved only in S.A.E. institute(i was lecturer there) version of ardour. Im one of rare people who have windows version of ardour... But anyway no im not involved any more.

And final. I have alot of trouble on forums cos of my eng. I can say something only (to) directly so sometimes it seems im attacking people. I "learned" eng by myself so u all will need to bear my eng here...lol
To tell u the truth i was expecting much "different" reaction from u but i see ur smart fellow so thx.

Anyway yeah i know bout Sweewater!!! I mean cmon man...lol

 

[thedreampolice]

No worries, please stick around we need people like you on this forum. Don't worry at all about your english, this is a hip-hop board after all.

 

[7thangel]

so you adjusted for pan law?

there have been countless tests and they all ended up nulling, as long as the test was done properly, so i'm wondering what methods you guys at sweetwater used

also, you don't need to record as hot, no matter how much headroom, digital is not forgiving. the quality of adc being used and the reliability of the daw metering combined with the subsequent dac (so you're not just monitoring levels via the digital meters for the incoming signal), they all factor in tracking, is there a weak link? can you trust that weak link for hot signals

here's a link to a great old thread discussing levels, itb, samples vs signal, summing, etc

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/4918/0/48/0/#msg_num_15

i'm in the camp that doesn't record over -6 dbfs, preferably lower like between -12 dbfs and -6 dbfs

 

[thedreampolice]

Try it in Cubase. That's all we did, create a stereo track with a final mix of a cd or whatever. Duplicate the track then invert phase on one. Try it in your DAW and see what happens.

Also I don't care how hot I record as long as it sounds good.

 

[Macky]

so you adjusted for pan law?

there have been countless tests and they all ended up nulling, as long as the test was done properly, so i'm wondering what methods you guys at sweetwater used

also, you don't need to record as hot, no matter how much headroom, digital is not forgiving. the quality of adc being used and the reliability of the daw metering combined with the subsequent dac (so you're not just monitoring levels via the digital meters for the incoming signal), they all factor in tracking, is there a weak link? can you trust that weak link for hot signals

here's a link to a great old thread discussing levels, itb, samples vs signal, summing, etc

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/4918/0/48/0/#msg_num_15

i'm in the camp that doesn't record over -6 dbfs, preferably lower like between -12 dbfs and -6 dbfs

yeah goo discussion.

"•STOP RUNNING YOUR SIGNAL SO HOT! Do not use the built in peak meters as you would use a VU meter. If you will keep your input levels lower, your sound will improve. You are not really gaining anything by trying to squeeze out that last little bit."

This was what i tryed to say but my eng didn't allow me.


Anyway i also record till -6db max. But i was thinking bout band recording (i mean everything). With rap vocals, especially newbies and home recordings i would record hot as possible. Not cos of headroom or noise, more cos of bad acoustic

 

[7thangel]

Try it in Cubase. That's all we did, create a stereo track with a final mix of a cd or whatever. Duplicate the track then invert phase on one. Try it in your DAW and see what happens.
.

but cubase has three different pan laws

anyways, i have and they nulled with pt, sonar. others did with more daws including the one that sparked the biggest 'it sounds better' shootouts years ago, samplitude, and they all nulled.

 

[thedreampolice]

Pan law

http://www.elaw.org/assets/images/graphics/climate.change.frying.pan.gif

Honestly I don't remember, I do remember that Pro tools nulled but in all of them you could hear something however faint. This has become more of a discussion on summing than recording and thats fine. If you ever get a chance try out the dangerous summing box's AMAZING!