Stanley "Tookie" Williams
- Thread starter ManDAmyth
- Start date
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Beat This!The next Beat This! Competition is from November 27-28th!
T
The Bastard
Guest
i mean, the guys a dirtbag . but what kinda example is the goverment sending by killing him.ManDAmyth said:
He's done a lot of stuff instrumental in organizing truces, he's written children books, is still producing anti-gang literature. He is well-respected by gangs and they actually listen to him. I think he's a tool that could be used to help get rid of the gang problems in many communities. Yes, he did kill four people and that's horrible, but think how many lives he can save by being an anti-gang activist. I think if he's allowed to die, the current political structure is taking a stance that its perfectly fine with them that gangs are terrorizing and murdering citizens of African American/Latin and Asian communities.
Read the CoIntel papers. See the disgusting methods the FBI used to crush the Black Panthers. A group of Blacks who if you read their idealogies, where perfectly just citizens demanding social reform in a racist country. The only questionable method about the Black Panther Movement was that they carried arms, which is perfectly reasonable considering the violence the Oakland Police Dept. subjected blacks to at that time.
I think its funny how the government crushes a political entity who's goal is to serve the interests of the Black community. Yet this same government seems unaware that there is an epidemic of local terrorists who's existance is weakening the Black community and resulting in rapid increase of crime and murder or minorities.
I think killing him is against what the American Penal system is about.
Read COINTEL Papers by Ward Churchill. It is full of actual FBI documents that were stolen by a group of dissident citizens. These are files that the public was never supposed to see. The FBI had denied their existance, but was forced too eventually.
Sending a letter to Martin Luther King, blackmailing him with false sexual scandal ploy encouraging him to commit suicide.
A letter from J. Edgar Hoover stating Marcus Garvey's clean criminal record and how unfortunate it is that Garvey was not invovled in anything illegal. Then suggesting the FBI fabricate crimes to get rid of him.
It's funny because Ward Churchill made some comments about the WTC victims, comparing the victims to Nazi's. And he's been smeared and riddled with savage reports that are trying to descredit all about him, even questioning if he really is of Indian Heritage.
During the Waco Stand the ATF claimed all of their video equipment stopped working. This explained why they had no video of the alleged attack they were subject too when approaching the Davidian compound with an illegally obtained warrant they FORGOT to bring with them when confronting the Davidians.
I know the above post seems irrelevant to Tookie Williams, but its not.
There seems (there is) to be a systematic mechanism in place that is designed to disrupt the Black Community.
The FBI currently has thousands of files on the murder of Tupac and Bigge. Files who dates precede the murder of Tupac. Why the fuck was the FBI keeping tabs on Biggie and Tupac?????
If you don't think it has to do with the Pac's Black Panther roots you're a fool.
Read the CoIntel papers. See the disgusting methods the FBI used to crush the Black Panthers. A group of Blacks who if you read their idealogies, where perfectly just citizens demanding social reform in a racist country. The only questionable method about the Black Panther Movement was that they carried arms, which is perfectly reasonable considering the violence the Oakland Police Dept. subjected blacks to at that time.
I think its funny how the government crushes a political entity who's goal is to serve the interests of the Black community. Yet this same government seems unaware that there is an epidemic of local terrorists who's existance is weakening the Black community and resulting in rapid increase of crime and murder or minorities.
I think killing him is against what the American Penal system is about.
Read COINTEL Papers by Ward Churchill. It is full of actual FBI documents that were stolen by a group of dissident citizens. These are files that the public was never supposed to see. The FBI had denied their existance, but was forced too eventually.
Sending a letter to Martin Luther King, blackmailing him with false sexual scandal ploy encouraging him to commit suicide.
A letter from J. Edgar Hoover stating Marcus Garvey's clean criminal record and how unfortunate it is that Garvey was not invovled in anything illegal. Then suggesting the FBI fabricate crimes to get rid of him.
It's funny because Ward Churchill made some comments about the WTC victims, comparing the victims to Nazi's. And he's been smeared and riddled with savage reports that are trying to descredit all about him, even questioning if he really is of Indian Heritage.
During the Waco Stand the ATF claimed all of their video equipment stopped working. This explained why they had no video of the alleged attack they were subject too when approaching the Davidian compound with an illegally obtained warrant they FORGOT to bring with them when confronting the Davidians.
I know the above post seems irrelevant to Tookie Williams, but its not.
There seems (there is) to be a systematic mechanism in place that is designed to disrupt the Black Community.
The FBI currently has thousands of files on the murder of Tupac and Bigge. Files who dates precede the murder of Tupac. Why the fuck was the FBI keeping tabs on Biggie and Tupac?????
If you don't think it has to do with the Pac's Black Panther roots you're a fool.
T
The Bastard
Guest
yeah... hes done a lot of good, but that dont erase the bad. if i went around knockin bitches up and didnt take responsibilty for my kids they were havin, id be a scum bag. my writing childrens books would never change that
M!nd_Ctrl
Posted Up
ill o.g.
ManDAmyth said:
I don't disagree that the government tries to keep strong blacks down, but you aren't in the FBI so how are you so sure about these files. I'm sure they do have them but you have no basis for those comments.
So, Stanley Tookie Williams writes some children's books and you think he's a good guy? If gangs listen to him, why does the violence persist? Do you think the younger generations even care who he is? You don't have a good argument for why he should live. He killed 4 people, he's in jail and taxpayers are paying for it. It's his time.
Don't twist what I'm saying, I'd say this about any race. So, I'm sorry if this offends some of you.
Also, do they "Just sentence people to die" or has it been a long time coming? I need to read about it.
Ctrl
I'm not in the FBI but it's fact they have files on Biggie and Tupac that run deep. They will not release them to the public however.
there is a huge controversy and many people are fighting to have the FBI release those files.
Obviously, you don't know much about Stanley Williams and his life. This is a man who started one of the biggest gangs in the world, who realized that lifestyle is not the way to go. His life can be used to defer people from joining and for influencing people not to join gangs.
Most gang members don't even know the guy exists. They don't read, they don't watch the news. What type of effect do you think it would have on a young kid involved in gangs sitting down with the founder of the gang he's in telling him he needs to stop.
The guy murdered 4 people, I'm not saying he should walk the streets. His life should be spared though.
http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1475
The FBI definitely has files.
They've been watching from start to finish since that nigga was born.
there is a huge controversy and many people are fighting to have the FBI release those files.
Obviously, you don't know much about Stanley Williams and his life. This is a man who started one of the biggest gangs in the world, who realized that lifestyle is not the way to go. His life can be used to defer people from joining and for influencing people not to join gangs.
Most gang members don't even know the guy exists. They don't read, they don't watch the news. What type of effect do you think it would have on a young kid involved in gangs sitting down with the founder of the gang he's in telling him he needs to stop.
The guy murdered 4 people, I'm not saying he should walk the streets. His life should be spared though.
http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1475
The FBI definitely has files.
They've been watching from start to finish since that nigga was born.
eXampuL_oNe
LOW-PRO
I agree, Giving him the death penalty is bullshit. He has done more then just write childrens books and anyone who knows about him would know that. I don't think he should walk the streets but he could be a successful tool for others to stop useless violence and joining gangs. The Government never thinks about things like that. They would rather just have him rott away and enjoy watching him die then use him as a tool to help others, which is sad.
M!nd_Ctrl
Posted Up
ill o.g.
ManDAmyth said:
Man, you simply have no basis for any comments you make. I know who he is, so why should I care about his life?! I personally wouldn't wish the death penalty on anyone, but he made his choices. You think he didn't know it was wrong either legally or morally. Maybe he killed killers, but is that a justification? Actually, this is what he was sentenced for:
"Fatally shooting a convenience store worker. He also was convicted of using a shotgun a few days later to kill two Los Angeles motel owners and their daughter during a robbery." Isn't it funny too how people want to stop the gang bullshit <b>after</b> they go to jail. I've seen to many documentaries with peeps claiming "I now have faith!" Happened to someone in my neighborhood. He only spent a few months in jail, due to lack of evidence, but a mother lost her son...
Don't talk about FBI (conspiracy theory) files. You have no proof. The FBI keeps tabs on a lot of people, but I don't think <b>every</b> situation should become a c-theory. I studied all about COINTELPRO so it's not foreign to me and I do agree that the government is shady. The story that has always stuck w/ me is about Fred Hampton ...he was so smart and so young. His speeches were simply amazing.
Example_One, I know he did more than write children's books, but when someone writes that in as his defense...<b>it's stupid</b>. That was my point. He's not a successful tool, most of the younger generations would idolize him for the "Crip co-founder" legend anyways. He was never an issue where I grew up though, so maybe I'm wrong.
You all should read some philosophy and logic books. Plato wrote one about Socrates defense. Essentially, an argument like "Oh, don't put him in jail...he has a wife and kids," is stupid. Check it here:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html
Peace,
Ctrl
i thought i posted this already but.. fuck that
Im speaking as someobody who has friends locked up for violence, and lost friends to violence
Its great that dude is doing his thing helping people. Maybe that will save his soul and give him peace in heaven. Dont get me wrong i respect dudes casue. I respect how he turned a negative into a postive. My mother uses his books in her school.
But the fact of the matter is THIS, he murdered people IN COLD BLOOD. I dont care how many people he helps it dont erase what he did.
I know people from the same enviroment & circumstances who are doing just as much good as he is. They dident have to kill some folks and get put on death row to see the light. In the end everyman is responsable for their own actions
You do the crime, you do the time, simple as that.
class..
Im speaking as someobody who has friends locked up for violence, and lost friends to violence
Its great that dude is doing his thing helping people. Maybe that will save his soul and give him peace in heaven. Dont get me wrong i respect dudes casue. I respect how he turned a negative into a postive. My mother uses his books in her school.
But the fact of the matter is THIS, he murdered people IN COLD BLOOD. I dont care how many people he helps it dont erase what he did.
I know people from the same enviroment & circumstances who are doing just as much good as he is. They dident have to kill some folks and get put on death row to see the light. In the end everyman is responsable for their own actions
You do the crime, you do the time, simple as that.
class..
Why shouldn't talk about FBI conspiracies???? They illegally withold information from the public. If you're familar with COINTEL Papers you would know this. I don't have cold-handed proof, but I have a boatload of evidence that points in that direction. An intelligent person doesn't need everything spoonfed to them.
The FBI savagley attacked and eventually ruined the Black Panther Movement. Tupac Shakur was the offspring literally and figuratively of that movement. The have files, that's not speculation. It's fact, they cannot be accessed and the FBI is witholding the information illegally. If Tupac was just some thugged out rapper, why the hell would the FBI keep files on him????? Coincidence?
If you know who Tookie Williams is then you know the good he has done since being incarcerated. You don't get nominated for two Nobel Peace Prizes for offering a bullshit apology and saying you have "faith".
How is it stupid that I pointed out the series of children's book he wrote. Do you know what those books address?????
How do you figure he's not a successful tool? Yes, the man will not end gang violence in 7 days, but to dismiss him as doing no good at all is downright foolish. You admit yourself you have no basis for that.
If you want to condemn him and let him die. So be it. But don't come at me like I'm an idiot just because I have a different opinion than you.
Go back to debate class if you just want to argue for argue's sake.
Around the same time period the FBI was crushing a perfectly legit political movement in the Black Panthers, Blood and Crip gangs were sprouting up all over the country killing and recruiting young black men into their ranks.
Nothing was done about this.
If Stanley Williams is allowed to die. The American government will be turning its back on a detrimental problem that effects the minority community.
So even without a conspiracy or a systematic effort to destroy Black communties the government still has a very distrubing policy when it comes to the concerns of non-whites...neglect.
The current United States Government does not represent the people. Stick your nose into what's going on in Washington and all over the world in the name of U.S. interests. The people never come into play.
And a stupid argument is one that stands for nothing; who's only purpose is too push another down.
Your the one who has no basis to argue.
If you believe the man should die, state that and I'll respect it, but don't come here saying I have a invalid argument simply because you disagree with me. That's bitch shit.
This issue has a lot of complexities. I find it disgusting what he did in his past.
If he never would have been caught he wouldn't have changed his ways. He was caught for a reason. God has put him in a place to do good. He can never make up for what he did. But his debt is to God and not to the American Penal system.
I don't think anybody should die regardless of their past sins. That's the beliefs I live by.
If you read my previous posts, I'm actually opposed to him being set free. He should spend life behind bars.
But if its a choice between killing him and letting him free. I will let him free.
The FBI savagley attacked and eventually ruined the Black Panther Movement. Tupac Shakur was the offspring literally and figuratively of that movement. The have files, that's not speculation. It's fact, they cannot be accessed and the FBI is witholding the information illegally. If Tupac was just some thugged out rapper, why the hell would the FBI keep files on him????? Coincidence?
If you know who Tookie Williams is then you know the good he has done since being incarcerated. You don't get nominated for two Nobel Peace Prizes for offering a bullshit apology and saying you have "faith".
How is it stupid that I pointed out the series of children's book he wrote. Do you know what those books address?????
How do you figure he's not a successful tool? Yes, the man will not end gang violence in 7 days, but to dismiss him as doing no good at all is downright foolish. You admit yourself you have no basis for that.
If you want to condemn him and let him die. So be it. But don't come at me like I'm an idiot just because I have a different opinion than you.
Go back to debate class if you just want to argue for argue's sake.
Around the same time period the FBI was crushing a perfectly legit political movement in the Black Panthers, Blood and Crip gangs were sprouting up all over the country killing and recruiting young black men into their ranks.
Nothing was done about this.
If Stanley Williams is allowed to die. The American government will be turning its back on a detrimental problem that effects the minority community.
So even without a conspiracy or a systematic effort to destroy Black communties the government still has a very distrubing policy when it comes to the concerns of non-whites...neglect.
The current United States Government does not represent the people. Stick your nose into what's going on in Washington and all over the world in the name of U.S. interests. The people never come into play.
And a stupid argument is one that stands for nothing; who's only purpose is too push another down.
Your the one who has no basis to argue.
If you believe the man should die, state that and I'll respect it, but don't come here saying I have a invalid argument simply because you disagree with me. That's bitch shit.
This issue has a lot of complexities. I find it disgusting what he did in his past.
If he never would have been caught he wouldn't have changed his ways. He was caught for a reason. God has put him in a place to do good. He can never make up for what he did. But his debt is to God and not to the American Penal system.
I don't think anybody should die regardless of their past sins. That's the beliefs I live by.
If you read my previous posts, I'm actually opposed to him being set free. He should spend life behind bars.
But if its a choice between killing him and letting him free. I will let him free.
M!nd_Ctrl
Posted Up
ill o.g.
The FBI doesn't "illegally" withhold information, they own it. I never said they aren't shady, but it's not for us to see.
You can go around talking about conspiracy theories about Tupac, but I'm just not buying it. Stop acting like you have inside info.
The only reason I admitted I might "have no basis" is because we didn't idolize fools like him (Williams) growing up.
I stand for nothing? I just don't sign stupid petitions to keep fools alive. He might have changed, but it happened too late. Write a letter to the families that lost a loved one.
If you don't want a debate, don't post crap about some killer who "[does good things now]" and ask "Why do you think of his situation?" Nobel Peace prizes or not, the people he killed aren't coming back. I'm sure the families of the people he murdered have been waiting for this closure.
It's good to have solidarity...but sometimes you need to get real.
Have fun,
Ctrl
You can go around talking about conspiracy theories about Tupac, but I'm just not buying it. Stop acting like you have inside info.
The only reason I admitted I might "have no basis" is because we didn't idolize fools like him (Williams) growing up.
I stand for nothing? I just don't sign stupid petitions to keep fools alive. He might have changed, but it happened too late. Write a letter to the families that lost a loved one.
If you don't want a debate, don't post crap about some killer who "[does good things now]" and ask "Why do you think of his situation?" Nobel Peace prizes or not, the people he killed aren't coming back. I'm sure the families of the people he murdered have been waiting for this closure.
It's good to have solidarity...but sometimes you need to get real.
Have fun,
Ctrl
MarkN
ILLIEN
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 55
its a pretty dodgy subject yes hes changed and for the better but perhaps its a bit too late like class said there are people who do even better things without having to kill someone first ! whether he should be killed or not is another debate entirely and that has to do with whether the death penalty is right or not, and thats your fucked up US justice system !
Public Information Act! The FBI cannot deny access to files unless it's a matter of National Security. I hardly believe Tupac falls under that category. If you are familar with COINTEL Papers you know the FBI is illegally withholding information and only gets away with it because misconceptions like the one you hold. The FBI is supposed to report its records just like any other Federal entity.
Once again. Files on Tupac exist. Why else would a United States Congresswoman announce to Congress that she was going to lead a campaign to force the FBI to release the files????
If you don't want to buy into it and ignore facts. That's fine. It's obvious you haven't looked into this at all. Explain to me why the FBI has files on Tupac Shakur that are classified, and not accessible by the public????? Once again. This is a fact, not speculation. What reason do they have to withhold those files? Why is Tupac Shakur being monitored by the FBI at anytime in his life???????
How is me signing a petition stupid? I think the advantages of keeping Stanley Williams alive does more good than killing him outright. If you kill him, no good comes from the situation. If you let him live, his same actions might be prevented. Isn't that worth it???
Stanley Williams can help prevent the senseless murders of innocent people while at the same time help reduce the amount of young black man that are thrown in jail.
Again (read the post), I don't think he should walk the streets. I believe he should serve his time (life) in prison. I believe killing him serves no purpose. Killing him is going to do nothing for the family of the people he killed.
I had a very close friend of mine killed by a Blood about 5 years ago on some stupid shit. My friends mother and myself visit his killer once a month. Then go speak to juvenile offenders.
I didn't grow up idolizing Stanley Williams either????? Don't jump on assumptions.
I asked what people thought on this subject. Intelligent people can have vastly different opinions yet still respect each other's views.
Take notes from Classic.
I can totally see why you think this man should die. That's a perfectly viable opinion I can respect.
Your outright rejection of my opinion is weak.
The evolution of gangs and the destruction of the Black Panther movement overlap. Is it stupid to ask why a perfectly viable political movement is being savagely sabotaged by the American Government while a destructive terrorist entity such as the Bloods and Crips are allowed to blossom?
Tupac Shakur was the son of a Black Panther. There are files on him that cover the course of his life. The FBI will not release these files under a claim of National Security. A U.S. congress-woman is currently waging a campaign to force the FBI to release these files. This is not speculation the files exist. Just as the Cointel Papers existed and were not released to the public, the only reason why those papers aren't still secret is because the FBI offices were robbed by American Citizens.
Once again, since you are so informed about the COINTEL Papers you will know of the Executive Orders put in place by Carter and Regan regarding classifying information. Under the current laws not a single government entity can hold files as secret without it pertaining to National Security. The only reason why the FBI gets away with holding any files secret is because too many people hold the same misconception that you do, the FBI does not own their files. Their files are the property of the PEOPLE of the United States of America. And considering the FBI is in place to monitor domestic crimes involving citizens of the United States, none of their files should be under the cloud of National Security.
No I haven't scoured over the files myself, but there is precedence as to why the FBI would withold these files from the public....that is the Cointel Papers you claim to be so familar with.
What does the FBI gain by keeping the documents secret. If Tupac was just some thugged out rapper that got shot by some other thugs.....how does that fall under National Security???????????????? If you like to eat bullshit off a spoon, go right ahead.
Why would the FBI keep the files secret???? To cover up the illegal use of COINTEL operations on an American citizen. To buy time to censor the thousand of pages they have in files on Tupac Shakur. So ridiculously censored copies of the original files will be released to the public, such as examples seen in the COINTEL Papers where only the words "the" and "a" are left.
Once again, its not a question as to if these files exist. They do.
You think Stanley Williams should die because he killed 4 people (perfectly legit reasoning). Your argument is that no matter what good he does, it doesn't change the fact that he killed those four people.
What does killing him change????? The four people he killed are still dead. The family of the victims will have a brief shallow and fleeting feeling of revenge when he is dead. The pain of losing their loved ones will still be stuck in their throat.
My argument is just as legit as yours. You are depicting yourself as a very immature person. You cannot say I don't have a rational argument for my stance on this matter. We have a simply disagreement. Your need to knock down my argument is a result of the fact that you're obviously misinformed on a lot of this.
My argument is not made of straws!
*If you want to continue life denying the FBI has files on Tupac Shakur that predate his murder and even signing with Death Row......Go ahead.
*If you're not perplexed as to why our government is crushing perfectly viable political movements that represent the interests of Blacks while letting destructive gangs fester in the black community?......Fine by me.
*If you want to ignore the fact that congress is moving to have the FBI release the files on Tupac Shakur....Go ahead.
But don't try to frame me as some crockpot conspiracy theorists who got read a copy of Behold the Pale horse while getting Thug Life tattooed on my stomach.
* The asteriks are facts. Not speculation. You don't have to buy into my thoughts. But if you ignore the facts your buying into the lie.
At one point the United States systematic and ruthless attack on the Black Panther Movement was only theory.
A theory by definition is:
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
Using the FBI's own documents (COINTEL) and current posistion involving the files of Tupac, how is my theory stupid??????
There is nothing to indicate that the FBI is not continuing to use COINTEL methods of monitoring and disrupting the actions of law abiding citizens.
When the COINTEL Papers were leaked. Not a single FBI employee has spent a day in jail. If you are so familar with the COINTEL Papers you would know the extent of the crimes the FBI committed in throwing people who they knew to be innocent in jail.
A huge tactic the FBI used in disrupting perfectly viable political operations during the COINTEL era was misinformation.
The Time Magazine has ran two stories on the murder of Tupac and Biggie that completely contradict each other. I'm not implicating Time magazine, but I'm fairly sure the FBI planted the seed for that.
And Read the damn petition. The petition is not reqeusting that Stanley Williams be set free, but to recieve an alternate sentence.
Life in prison. As a taxpayer I have no problem paying for a prisoner that is doing something to prevent others from following his path.
Have you spoken out against the hundreds of people the government is holding in jail as supposed terrorists, when those individuals committed no crime and only their only suspicious activity is being Muslim and possessing a dissident attitude towards a government that does not represent them???? Do you have a problem with them using your tax money to hold innocent people (citizens of this country) as criminals when its against our constitution?????
Once again. Files on Tupac exist. Why else would a United States Congresswoman announce to Congress that she was going to lead a campaign to force the FBI to release the files????
If you don't want to buy into it and ignore facts. That's fine. It's obvious you haven't looked into this at all. Explain to me why the FBI has files on Tupac Shakur that are classified, and not accessible by the public????? Once again. This is a fact, not speculation. What reason do they have to withhold those files? Why is Tupac Shakur being monitored by the FBI at anytime in his life???????
How is me signing a petition stupid? I think the advantages of keeping Stanley Williams alive does more good than killing him outright. If you kill him, no good comes from the situation. If you let him live, his same actions might be prevented. Isn't that worth it???
Stanley Williams can help prevent the senseless murders of innocent people while at the same time help reduce the amount of young black man that are thrown in jail.
Again (read the post), I don't think he should walk the streets. I believe he should serve his time (life) in prison. I believe killing him serves no purpose. Killing him is going to do nothing for the family of the people he killed.
I had a very close friend of mine killed by a Blood about 5 years ago on some stupid shit. My friends mother and myself visit his killer once a month. Then go speak to juvenile offenders.
I didn't grow up idolizing Stanley Williams either????? Don't jump on assumptions.
I asked what people thought on this subject. Intelligent people can have vastly different opinions yet still respect each other's views.
Take notes from Classic.
I can totally see why you think this man should die. That's a perfectly viable opinion I can respect.
Your outright rejection of my opinion is weak.
The evolution of gangs and the destruction of the Black Panther movement overlap. Is it stupid to ask why a perfectly viable political movement is being savagely sabotaged by the American Government while a destructive terrorist entity such as the Bloods and Crips are allowed to blossom?
Tupac Shakur was the son of a Black Panther. There are files on him that cover the course of his life. The FBI will not release these files under a claim of National Security. A U.S. congress-woman is currently waging a campaign to force the FBI to release these files. This is not speculation the files exist. Just as the Cointel Papers existed and were not released to the public, the only reason why those papers aren't still secret is because the FBI offices were robbed by American Citizens.
Once again, since you are so informed about the COINTEL Papers you will know of the Executive Orders put in place by Carter and Regan regarding classifying information. Under the current laws not a single government entity can hold files as secret without it pertaining to National Security. The only reason why the FBI gets away with holding any files secret is because too many people hold the same misconception that you do, the FBI does not own their files. Their files are the property of the PEOPLE of the United States of America. And considering the FBI is in place to monitor domestic crimes involving citizens of the United States, none of their files should be under the cloud of National Security.
No I haven't scoured over the files myself, but there is precedence as to why the FBI would withold these files from the public....that is the Cointel Papers you claim to be so familar with.
What does the FBI gain by keeping the documents secret. If Tupac was just some thugged out rapper that got shot by some other thugs.....how does that fall under National Security???????????????? If you like to eat bullshit off a spoon, go right ahead.
Why would the FBI keep the files secret???? To cover up the illegal use of COINTEL operations on an American citizen. To buy time to censor the thousand of pages they have in files on Tupac Shakur. So ridiculously censored copies of the original files will be released to the public, such as examples seen in the COINTEL Papers where only the words "the" and "a" are left.
Once again, its not a question as to if these files exist. They do.
You think Stanley Williams should die because he killed 4 people (perfectly legit reasoning). Your argument is that no matter what good he does, it doesn't change the fact that he killed those four people.
What does killing him change????? The four people he killed are still dead. The family of the victims will have a brief shallow and fleeting feeling of revenge when he is dead. The pain of losing their loved ones will still be stuck in their throat.
My argument is just as legit as yours. You are depicting yourself as a very immature person. You cannot say I don't have a rational argument for my stance on this matter. We have a simply disagreement. Your need to knock down my argument is a result of the fact that you're obviously misinformed on a lot of this.
My argument is not made of straws!
*If you want to continue life denying the FBI has files on Tupac Shakur that predate his murder and even signing with Death Row......Go ahead.
*If you're not perplexed as to why our government is crushing perfectly viable political movements that represent the interests of Blacks while letting destructive gangs fester in the black community?......Fine by me.
*If you want to ignore the fact that congress is moving to have the FBI release the files on Tupac Shakur....Go ahead.
But don't try to frame me as some crockpot conspiracy theorists who got read a copy of Behold the Pale horse while getting Thug Life tattooed on my stomach.
* The asteriks are facts. Not speculation. You don't have to buy into my thoughts. But if you ignore the facts your buying into the lie.
At one point the United States systematic and ruthless attack on the Black Panther Movement was only theory.
A theory by definition is:
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
Using the FBI's own documents (COINTEL) and current posistion involving the files of Tupac, how is my theory stupid??????
There is nothing to indicate that the FBI is not continuing to use COINTEL methods of monitoring and disrupting the actions of law abiding citizens.
When the COINTEL Papers were leaked. Not a single FBI employee has spent a day in jail. If you are so familar with the COINTEL Papers you would know the extent of the crimes the FBI committed in throwing people who they knew to be innocent in jail.
A huge tactic the FBI used in disrupting perfectly viable political operations during the COINTEL era was misinformation.
The Time Magazine has ran two stories on the murder of Tupac and Biggie that completely contradict each other. I'm not implicating Time magazine, but I'm fairly sure the FBI planted the seed for that.
And Read the damn petition. The petition is not reqeusting that Stanley Williams be set free, but to recieve an alternate sentence.
Life in prison. As a taxpayer I have no problem paying for a prisoner that is doing something to prevent others from following his path.
Have you spoken out against the hundreds of people the government is holding in jail as supposed terrorists, when those individuals committed no crime and only their only suspicious activity is being Muslim and possessing a dissident attitude towards a government that does not represent them???? Do you have a problem with them using your tax money to hold innocent people (citizens of this country) as criminals when its against our constitution?????
M!nd_Ctrl
Posted Up
ill o.g.
I do respect your opinion. You asked how others felt, so don't act like I'm supposed to think you're smart\ for trying to keep some dumb fuck alive.
You go talk to killers and then kids, that actually might help, but coming from him...it's too late.
I still think signing the petition is stupid!
A lot of peeps are montored by the FBI.
You obviously think this man is too special.
Oh and I never mentioned him being set free. I still think he deserves what he gets.
It's not just you paying for his time in prison either. Why did you bring up supporting innocent people?
Again solidarity is cool...but get real. He's not gonna help anyone.
Dec 13...
Ctrl
You go talk to killers and then kids, that actually might help, but coming from him...it's too late.
I still think signing the petition is stupid!
A lot of peeps are montored by the FBI.
You obviously think this man is too special.
Oh and I never mentioned him being set free. I still think he deserves what he gets.
It's not just you paying for his time in prison either. Why did you bring up supporting innocent people?
Again solidarity is cool...but get real. He's not gonna help anyone.
Dec 13...
Ctrl
He has helped some people! You can't ignore the good this man has done. You are justified in thinking that the good does not outweigh the bad.
Your talking as if this man simply said "I shouldn't have killed these people, there I said it now let me be free."
You cannot honestly say his actions have done no good.
I asked how others felt on the topic, to have a discussion. It's an interesting subject because there is no right or wrong.
When did I get on a soapbox waving a banner saying I'm smart??????????? That is the dumbest shit I've heard in a minute. When did I ever say having a conflicting opinion then me makes you a moron??????? Who except for someone insecure because their own argument is built on nothing but a gut feeling, would feel threatened by my statements?
Do you really think I posted this so I could get a pat on the back from as many people as possible telling me I'm smart??????????????????????? WTF?
Because I want to talk about a subject that effects my community and give reasoining for my opinion I'm grandstanding??????
If you can't tolerate that other people will have opinions that differ from yours you shouldn't jump into these discussions.
Stay on Plato's dick chasin non-existant forms. I'll be like Aristotle and deal with shit that matters.
During the course of this whole argument you have said nothing constructive.
How do you respect my opinion then say its stupid to sign the banner???? If you don't agree with it you don't have to sign. If you respect my opinion you would also respect my decision to sign the petition.
You're the one who brought up how taxpayers are paying for him to be in prison. I simply brought up the fact that hundreds of innoncent citizens of America are being held without committing a crime, taxpayers pay for that as well. Or is that something else you just threw out there for the sole purpose of refuting someone elses opinion, with no reason behind it.
Once again the man wasn't nominated for two Noble Peace Prizes because he didn't help anyone.
Let's start a scholarship fund in the honor of the victims he killed.
I have no idea what it takes to something like that and/or where you get the funding from.
Instead of arguing lets do something. As BootsRiley recently said in an interview -the revolution will start with us. We can't wait for a leader, if we wait for a leader we're simply followers. Who can do nothing on our own.
This will be a long process, I can't imagine us being able to see it come to fruitation no earlier then ten years from now, but we're both young.
A scholarship that honors the senseless killings of the victims while granting scholarships to the young men/women that stay away from the lifestyle that Stanley Williams lead.
I challenge Illmuzik as a whole to this. We can do something positive. Hip Hop is about action, Hip Hop represents the people. Let's show the world the goodness that can come from Hip Hop!
Your talking as if this man simply said "I shouldn't have killed these people, there I said it now let me be free."
You cannot honestly say his actions have done no good.
I asked how others felt on the topic, to have a discussion. It's an interesting subject because there is no right or wrong.
When did I get on a soapbox waving a banner saying I'm smart??????????? That is the dumbest shit I've heard in a minute. When did I ever say having a conflicting opinion then me makes you a moron??????? Who except for someone insecure because their own argument is built on nothing but a gut feeling, would feel threatened by my statements?
Do you really think I posted this so I could get a pat on the back from as many people as possible telling me I'm smart??????????????????????? WTF?
Because I want to talk about a subject that effects my community and give reasoining for my opinion I'm grandstanding??????
If you can't tolerate that other people will have opinions that differ from yours you shouldn't jump into these discussions.
Stay on Plato's dick chasin non-existant forms. I'll be like Aristotle and deal with shit that matters.
During the course of this whole argument you have said nothing constructive.
How do you respect my opinion then say its stupid to sign the banner???? If you don't agree with it you don't have to sign. If you respect my opinion you would also respect my decision to sign the petition.
You're the one who brought up how taxpayers are paying for him to be in prison. I simply brought up the fact that hundreds of innoncent citizens of America are being held without committing a crime, taxpayers pay for that as well. Or is that something else you just threw out there for the sole purpose of refuting someone elses opinion, with no reason behind it.
Once again the man wasn't nominated for two Noble Peace Prizes because he didn't help anyone.
Let's start a scholarship fund in the honor of the victims he killed.
I have no idea what it takes to something like that and/or where you get the funding from.
Instead of arguing lets do something. As BootsRiley recently said in an interview -the revolution will start with us. We can't wait for a leader, if we wait for a leader we're simply followers. Who can do nothing on our own.
This will be a long process, I can't imagine us being able to see it come to fruitation no earlier then ten years from now, but we're both young.
A scholarship that honors the senseless killings of the victims while granting scholarships to the young men/women that stay away from the lifestyle that Stanley Williams lead.
I challenge Illmuzik as a whole to this. We can do something positive. Hip Hop is about action, Hip Hop represents the people. Let's show the world the goodness that can come from Hip Hop!
M!nd_Ctrl
Posted Up
ill o.g.
ManDAmyth said:
That's a very good and constructive idea. I don't know what it would take either, but its a step in the right direction.
Hopefully, there are no hard feelings. We both stuck to our sides and that's cool. I actually looked forward to your posts.
Peace,
Ctrl
Big Tone
You done fucked up
ill o.g.
i have to agree with ctrl. i dont believe in the death penalty but a man doesnt get it if he didnt deserve it. he may have done some good things, but he created something that is still taking the lives of innocent people. being responsible for the gangs calling a truce doesnt make up for the people that arent in gangs dying. sorry bro. this forum was an interesting read tho