Professional VS Bedroom Producers !

[MarkN]

Been thinking about this subject and just thought id put it up here to see what all you think ! Basically do professional producers get too much credit for there work ! For example Kanye West ..... His album the tracks used are pretty much all heavily sampled ( this point really depends on where you stand with the whole sampling debate itself ) this isn't too much of a problme for me as i don't mind people sampling ! However ive noticed a lot of tracks on his album have been co-written, co-produced, on a lot of tracks he has extra session musicians in to play stuff ! Aswell as this he also has two people who he colaborates with a lot in john legend ( piano and vocals ) and miri ben-ari ( violin ) in who are obviously talented musicians and have written, arranged, preformed and produced a lot of stuff for kanye ! On top of this there is obviously a number of people have been featured through guest appearances... Jay-z, talib , common , twista, freeway, ludacris , mos def and a number of others aswell as a lot of people doing guest vocals for him ! He then has a team of experienced individuals who are exectutive and co-executive producers, jay-z, dame dash, kareem, 'hip hop', these are all people who have a lot of experience in the industry !
And lets not forget the promotion etc all his stuff will recieve this has much more of an impact than you would think !
My point is a lot of praise is given to his production etc but you only have to look above to see the amount of help he is given in getting the end product thats without even mentioning the fact that he has access to the latest equipment and all his stuff is mixed and mastered by professionals no this is not a kanye west hate post at all im just using his album as an example there are plenty other who are the same im sure !
But then take a look at producers like us on illmuzik, we only get to use the equipmet we have/ can afford, we don't get a lot of time often to work on our stuff, this isn't a job to us most of us will be working a job or in college ! We have to do everything ourselves from the ideas to finidng samples or playing keys or guitar to producing it arranging it etc ! We often have no rappers on our tracks let alone jay-z and talib kweli ! There is no mastering a lot of times on tracks you hear on this site ! There is no promotion !
Just a thought, there is a lot of people on here who produce really good beats, now just think if you add in all that a professional producer gets how good they could be ! Maybe the gap between professional and bedroom is not always that big ! ?

 

[pirell]

i dont think everything has to be T this VS that. the professionals you mention are ahead bcos they are in the right environment yes, but i dont think its healthy to say he only achieved this or that cos he's where he is..cos thats where YOU shoudl be too or shold work towards. do u think if jay-z came to record a track at your house in your bedroom, the quality, the atmosphere, the producer guidance you give him would be as standard as what he's done in the past?

bcos i dont YET get all the equipment or have the experience they have doesnt mean im satisfied with where i am, yes alot of us are doing alot of fantastic stuff with litlle less to peanuts in some cases, but talent is ultimately useless or shortlived if not nurtured properly,

i dont knwo of any famous bedrooms yet that has gone multi-platinum. that should change eventually but not just yet i doubt

 

[MarkN]

no its not really case of this verus that just a comparison ! and that is what im working towards, if he came to my house at the mom no i wouldn't be able to give him the same advice a much more experienced producer would BUT thats not really my point my point is i guess can we compare what bedrrom producers do with wot kanye west or timbaland or dr dre does wen they have that much of an advantage !

 

[Kevin A]

Dead thread homie. All you need is a good mix. If they don't master it themselves why do you think you should? We try our best to cut the middle man out, but if you know you got something that's gonna hit the market, you better not try to master it yourself.

 

[UnOwn]

I see your point and the gap is closing steadily and technology is only going to increase the speed at which that happens... I guess we'll just have to see what comes.

 

[Cold Truth]

i see yuor point, but....

it TAKES all those people to produce an album. it takes more than just you and your mpc/computer. at some point, i'm sure thats how kanye got his start, just like us. its about making connections, shopping around and selling yourself, and thats what gets you to that point. the gap has more to do with those things then actual skill, although that plays a role- and you could be a technically proficient producer but lack the accessability/marketability it takes to reach that level. does that make sense?

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Work with what you have and try to approach the same finished product....what they have access to sometimes you will not be able to emulate in sonic clarity or overall finished track thatz just how it is, sometimes there are pieces in the pro mastering environment that no software plugin by itself might reproduce...but you can come very close....as far as access to the live musicians to play compositions around the sample and based on the key and your flip thatz where you might fall short unless you either can play good original riffs that blend or mesh with the sample...you make a good point because a lot of times thatz where the gap is bridged between a good sample and a concept to take it to the level of a full track.....not saying you can't produce a nice sample beat with good orchestration without the use of a live or pro musician that can improvise or blend parts around the original...but the abilities to paint the soundscape beyond the original sample become more difficult for the home producer......just using a vinyl library

 

[Ozmosis]

Kanye job as a producers means that also like the most of hes a visionary. He might have played a violin sample when making that "over night celebraty" track for twista, then realized it would sound much better if he brought in miri ben-ari a real violist to get the sound he is looking for. When your at that level of producer as kanye, dre, or timb your job mostly is about createing new ideas, songs, and organizing the music. There acting more as a producer now then just a beat maker. Another example is an article I read, Kanye wanted to bring in the Harlem Boys Choir to actually sing, not just drop a sample. Of course all these guys got their start being a beat maker just like the rest of us. There a picture in the source magazine with kanye on the cover and in the article it has a pic of him in 97 at his homestudio and it looked just like a lot of cats on illmuzk. I hope I explained my point well.

"The Oz"

 

[MarkN]

yea im not dissing him in anyway i know he made a lot of his first beats in his bedroom just like we do wot im trying to day is that wen you get all the stuff he now he has you can take it to a whole different level ! He obviosuly worked very hard making the stuff in the bedroom but now hes at the level he is at he opens up more opportunities for himself and can now go that bit further on tracks !

 

[ACEBEATZ]

One thing good about havin all those producers credited these days is that now, they own their place as well if not more than mc's. Producers we're in the dark before and now their names are screamed over productions and in mc's verses. So the importance of their work is more evident than ever.

You still got poeple livin in shadow, misunderstood stages of productions, like ya said, from guest musicians to mastering engineers. But slowly, poeple begin to understand and know the process of makin an album. One thing that was hidden before to the public.

You were havin the stars in spotlights yesterday, and tomorrow, the whole crew.

Holla Ace

 

[Shonsteez]

Even tha bigg cats started somewhere small....U dont think they were makin shit in theyre basement or bedroom before they got put on blast?!...

 

[classic]

Ozmois had a good point

I think it comes down to this

There are producers and there are beat makers…….

A good beat maker is an expert at on his or her equipment is is able to bang out tight instementals. They can usually work in a home environment

A good producer- is able to develop musical ideas, is able Lead musicians and vocalists. Inspire good music and reinvent a sound. They need to be in a studio environment (impossible to do this in an home environment)

With mediocre talent ,U can teach anyone to be a decent beat maker with in a year or 2. But most people will NEVER become good producers. Because It takes so much more than technical skill. You have to have an intuition and a ear for certain things. You have to have leader ship skills. A producer can never touch a piece of musical equipment but is still able to inspire and get the best out of his musicians. A producer is the equivalent to a conductor for and orchestra, he/she doesn’t play an instrument but he/she sets the whole tone of the performance!!!!!!

This is where the difference between home setups and studio setups start to differ.
A beat maker is conetent so stay with their home set up while a producer wants to get in a professional studio and experiment!!!!


To be honest, most of us hear are beatmakers, some of us have the ability to become excellent producers( if given the opportunity). Others just don’t have the ability.


Just my opinion

Class….

 

[MarkN]

^^^^ Good point, the term producer just seems to get used pretty broadly in hip hop like you say a producer is some1 who overseas the whole project like kanye has done with his album where as some1 like maybe alchemist is a pure beatmaker ! A producer is what im actually training to be throught the course im doing at the moment the beatmaking is just something i like to do but both help me out with the other if you see what i mean !
Deuce - no i realise he made stuff before he got famous but just saying how it changes when he gets signed i mean he made beats for beanie sigel and jay-z out of his bedroom !

 

[Formant024]

I've seen snoop's studio, there's a lot of stuff around his Mackie desk but the room itself can be considered as class " bedroom techie ". The big studios have two things, the right size for mastering and the right gear for mastering, all unneccesary to CREATE a track. As long as you dont have a acousticly build controlroom cq. bedroom with the correct dimensions and angles etc forget about mastering yourself and give your track the value it needs by adressing your production to a proper mastering engineer or vynil cutter, it's really worth the effort.

 

[pirell]

^^^^ Good point, the term producer just seems to get used pretty broadly in hip hop like you say a producer is some1 who overseas the whole project like kanye has done with his album where as some1 like maybe alchemist is a pure beatmaker ! A producer is what im actually training to be throught the course im doing at the moment the beatmaking is just something i like to do but both help me out with the other if you see what i mean !
Deuce - no i realise he made stuff before he got famous but just saying how it changes when he gets signed i mean he made beats for beanie sigel and jay-z out of his bedroom !

there are many types of producers, if ur training to be one..best to find out which one!

there are even producers that have received producer credits being just Music journalists, but have been so inspirational on a particualr album that they received producer credits, not just as a one off but on a few albums. so a producer is many things, not just making beats, and surely theres nothing wrong with moving from beatmaker to visionary, to whatever your creativity allows you to be?

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Hey the beatmaker producer debate has been.....BEAT TO Death....LOL....check tha threads there's been MANY
https://www.illmuzik.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2799&highlight=beatmaker

 

[threesixty]

I think this is a good thread because its making people realise how stuff is actually made.
When you work in a major label system there is too much money at stake for just one
person to make a decision. If your spend 200,000 on a video, Half a mill launching the record etc.. a label is gonna want to check everything is as good as it could be. Otherwise their wasting money.

So if, for example, one of the beat makers on this site put a beat through the system, its gonna get tracked by experience engineers, vocals recorded with the best mics, mixed by Duro, Serban etc.. Because a label would rather spend 20k getting the track right before spending 200,000 on a video cos its like an insurance policy for them.

The funny thing is after all that sh*t is done people still turn round and tell you your track is wack (i.e. people dissing Brandys new tune on this site). You can now understand how much pressure this game is cos their is NO GUARANTEE's no matter how many experienced cats you have holding your hand when you produce a record. Nobody really knows if a million people are gonna feel a track or not, its all a big gamble.

Which explains why a major label doesnt give a flying f*ck about you if your not an established producer. Which is why they dont wanna listen to unsolicited material through the mail. Because in reality they cant tell, and no one can really tell whether a track is gonna connect with the public. If they have to drop half a mill on an artist they'd rather trust Kanye or Swizz etc.. than U (insert ill muzik beat maker) even if your beat is amazing because the risk is too much.

The only way any label is gonna trust you is if their people (i.e. their friend, other a&r's, radio jocks etc.. the industry network) is vouching for you. Which means you have to turn tricks for free to impress and build up friendships with industry people before they'll even let you in the ring with Serban and Duro et al..

Thats exactly what Kanye did to get where he is at now. Same as the Neps, Timmy etc.. They had to turn some amazing tricks on equipment that is basic before anyone vouched for them. Neps did beats on 01W's for years, Kanye didnt even upgrade to an 2000XL!

There are basically 2 ways for people to notice u in this game.

1) You can jack someone style so well that people cant tell whether its you or them. Everyones a wanna be, and some local cat is gonna love u if you can give em Kanye beats for peanuts. The downside to that is, Kanye is already in the "Production System" and has access to "real" violinists and keyboard players etc.. All extra sh*t that u dont have. The chances of you matching or beating producers like Kanye, Tim or the Neps at there own game are really slim. R.Kelly did it to GUY to get established so it can work well sometimes.

2) You do something f*cked up and original that only your doing and you stick with it. If it really is cool someones gonna mess with u. The downside is it has to be dope, no ones into weird sh*t that only u and your mom likes. Its not good enough just to be different. Your sh*t has to work on the general public. Kanye did this by speeding up samples, thats what got him noticed.


The only other way to get access to the "Production System' of top engineers and musicians is to be signed as an act. i.e. Nokio from Dru Hill etc.. But those producers dont seem to last too long in the game cos they never developed a style on their own in a basic way.

Thats the system, thats how it works, and it aint gonna change.

 

[MarkN]

^ good post, yea im not trying to bring anyone down just woznt sure if people realise how much more goes into an album like kanyes production wise other than justr him making beats ! Before when he woz making beats out of his bedroom for jay-z or whoeva his woz making great beats with no help and lesser equipment but i woz just illustrating how much changes when it comes to a full album !

 

[BlackSox]

First of all, I think Kanye DOES get a lot more help than most other big name producers. If i put out my best 3 beats with big name artists on them, I'm sure at least one of them would be a hit. its the artist that makes the song, most of the time. most of the beats on this week's showcase + ludacris's and/or Jay-Z's voice could be on an album (mastered). I think making it is the hard part, but once you get some big name people on your beats, its over. also let me work with a team of people that knows exactly what to add to make a beat into a hit single, and I’d be famous too.

on different note, think of the 4 most popular producers of the last few years. my opinion-
Kanye west
The Neptunes
Timberland(not shown in awhile)
Jazzy Pha

all 4 sing/rap as well as make beats. I havent heard anyone on this site talk much about doing this....also, if i understand right, you get 50% royalty do everything right and work with BMI, etc. buttt, (this is where the genius of The neptunes,Tim, and Jazzy Pha comes in) You get 100% royalty if your voice is on the track. so all those little "UH!"'s, and "HO!"'s that Pharrell spits out give The neptunes 100% royalty payments. (if i understand right)

not sure how i began talking about this, but yes there is a huge difference between a producer and a beat maker.

hope this helps
Silas



-BTW-
I think this is a perfect time to share my first and only sample-
the anti-kanye west beat. Jay-Z says it best....


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/1/blacksoxmusic.htm (only like 40 secs. long)

one of my random ideas I had

I respect him as a producer. nothing against him.

silas

 

[Shonsteez]

I guess call me a 'Pure Beatmaker' then, with a Producers 'train a thought'/'ear'........I am tha construct in tha making of a great producer with tha training of a beatmaker.