Overall, the most important production instrument

[dacalion]

Here's an issue that came up in the lab today...Which is better as a single producer? Mastering individual instruments or mastering only the keys?

Some said that mastering individual instruments was better because the more you know, the better your production would be. Mainly the important ones like drums, bass guitar, strings and you could be so-so on the keys.

Others said that once you've mastered playing keys, all else will fall in, no matter what the instrument. Everything can be done from a keyboard.

Personally, I was on the side with the keys is all you really need. It would be nice to be able to bring in a specialist on every instrument but it's not realistic unless you got one hella budget. Therefore in the case of a single producer, I feel that keys is the biggest obstacle.

What do you all think?

MOF

 

[mercurywaters]

yeah. i would have to agree. if a keyboard is your main input device, you need to know how to play it a little. you could pencil or program all your notes in but there's nothing like real human expression.

 

[Dysphuncktional]

I see what yall are sayin, but if you want to emulate any instrument accurately you at least have to have some idea and feel of how they work. a drum part with 10 sounds playing at the same time will always sound fake. a guitar with no strumming, 8 notes at once etc will sound fake.

also for certain instruments, there are certain note combinations or whatever that you could easily play on the kb that would be impossible on the actual instrument, thus it will sound fake.

for example, on the guitar you dont start at the first interval and then hit the minor or major third right away after it, the strings are spread out over several octaves and fifths. All things you gotta take into account if you want to emulate these intruments properly.

So all in all, i think a combination of at least basic knowledge of instruments plus keyboard skills are essential. Sure , if you only know how to play keys you can do just fine without ever touching an instrument in your life, but if you're going for realistic or accurate then this will keep you stuck. Knowledge of how instruments work and sound doesnt just magically 'fall in' if you know how to play the keyboard.


Edit: I guess this puts me in the first camp, i think it would be better to know your instruments and be so-so on the keys than to be awesome on keyboard but to know jackshit about instruments....

 

[2GooD Productions]

I have been trying to emulate instruments for a long time now using just a keyboard.
On the whole a reasonable sound can be acheived but the nuances of each instrument cannot always be acheived with a keyboard. Like a guitar strum, which I have found to be one of the hardest.
If you listen to a classical peice especially when its performed live, like the BBC Proms or something similar and watch the instrument being played, you can hear so much that is very hard to acheive with a keyboard. With a bit of clever use between different instrument patches of the same type along with pitch bend you can fake a few things but not all of them. Now if you had an orchestra to command thats the real deal right there.
Without that, you can only strive to fake the instruments which is a very difficult ballgame that takes a lot of understanding of the instruments involved.

 

[luxx]

i feel what dysphunk and 2good r saying but to me the keys is the most important because after all we are making hip hop beats its not like were trying to put out orchastra music or classical symphonies

 

[Blue77]

Or you could just master the art of sampling and be so so on the keys.This is the closest thing to having the real instrument.Plus if your trying to emulate real instruments ,you will have to listen to a whole lot of real instruments for a long time. When you listen to alot of records , you will know how real instruments are supposed to sound.

 

[dacalion]

I have been trying to emulate instruments for a long time now using just a keyboard.
On the whole a reasonable sound can be acheived but the nuances of each instrument cannot always be acheived with a keyboard. Like a guitar strum, which I have found to be one of the hardest.
If you listen to a classical peice especially when its performed live, like the BBC Proms or something similar and watch the instrument being played, you can hear so much that is very hard to acheive with a keyboard. With a bit of clever use between different instrument patches of the same type along with pitch bend you can fake a few things but not all of them. Now if you had an orchestra to command thats the real deal right there.
Without that, you can only strive to fake the instruments which is a very difficult ballgame that takes a lot of understanding of the instruments involved.

Hey 2good, great points! I read in an article (that I will look for and post if I can find it...) that Rolands next generation synths will incorporate SOME of the things that you mentioned. One of the things that they are actually trying to reproduce is that little "zip" sound of a finger slide on an accoustic guitar that you hear in between notes, mainly in live performances. I love that sound too. Anyway, Im sure that thedreampolice and a few "in depth" others have heard of this. Thats one of the things that sparked the "It's only a matter of time" thread but I never mentioned it. It's gonna be interesting when this comes out how it will effect the music world.

MOF

 

[Sincock]

Personally, I believe the most important instrument is the producer themselves. It doesn't really matter what equipment you're using: some of the most classic beats were made with an SP1200, or MPC.

A keyboard is certainly the most versatile instrument but learning other instruments isn't gonna hurt your game either.

I don't believe it's absoloutely necessary to try to emulate instruments on your keyboard or whatever. It's never going to be a guitar or a trombone, it's a keyboard. How many live drummers use overdubs when recording? You'll find that many recorded drum parts from classic albums would be virtually unplayable in a live situation. Then there's plenty of groups that have a seperate percussionist or even a second drummer. Why not use the capabilities of what you have to do what it can? As long as it sounds good who cares if it's realistic or not? Of course, going overboard is gonna make it sound like shit but there's no rules here.

 

[Relic]

Sorry I skipped thru all the above posts and will go back and read , but basically if you master a Piano aka keys then you have both percussion and melody in the same instrument, thus you will be able better to relate to those that have mastered other things...
And with todays keyboards thats basically all types of instruments.
As a producer tho you will prolly always be a jack of all trades master of none except that final product concept..

Now having read some, Triton has that zip sound on the gtr, they also have arpeggio which is nice because it does emulate the strum on gtr, (Check the Child Abuse album to hear me playin with that) , but they did an ok job with that vibe the future will bring better, 2Good I feel you the orchestra is what I cant get out of my head along with a choir...
It will be MY day , the day that I can get all that controled by me in my studio, without having 80 people there..
But until then itd be cool to have 80 people there doin it..

And true dat Sincock

 

[dacalion]

The Roland SP-808ex already has that feature, you can take 1 voice a make it sound like an entire choir and with a few effects, it will sound very convincing too! I knew about the arpeggio but I didn't know about the zip sound on the Triton, I've got 2 at the lab 1 is the Workstation, the other is an Extreme...gotta find that sound for realz! Thanks for the tip!

MOF

 

[2GooD Productions]

There are patches on reason that emulate the guitar strum , but Im not happy with it, there is timing issues with it.
And if clever with some of the guitar patches you can also get the little slides of finger movement.
But Ive been thinking and the best most important part is your own ears, over the years my sense of hearing has developed and allowed me to hear whats right from whats wrong, Im still training them but I know they have improved greatly with experience. SO the best part in any production setup is your ears.

 

[Ash Holmz]

^^^agreed ,, to be honest u dont have to know how to play keys or any instrument to be a producer.. i dont know any instruments and im a super novice keyboard player .... the ear and vision for the track is most important element in hip hop producing..

 

[Spin10doe]

Key Please

Alright. I'm noo expert on every instument, but i have a lil experience on a few. The thing about keys is that the notes are universal with almost every instrument. Have you every wondered why a music or voice teacher always stands at the piano when a student is trying to get a note or pitch right? Ya know there pressing one key repeatedly saying the letter note. That is because the piano can act as a catch all when it comes to notes of other instruments. Now one intrument I can say for a fact that it doesn't work well with is the 4 string bass guitar. But it's only 4 strings so you should pick the basics up quick. So for thse who feel the piano is the way to go, you're right. But haveing a lil something for all the boys in the band is just as good.

 

[Formant024]

you need feel, instruments wont provide that but practice does. other than that, there are plenty musicians who play it better than you but they cant lay down a beat....use them, got an idea but dont play the instrument,,,find a musician!

 

[Ash Holmz]

^^^ basically..... production is taking an idea an making it into a track.. the methods are irrelevant.. the RESULT is the only thing that matters.