is underground a reaction to mainstream?

[mercurywaters]

if there was no one prominent sound in hip hop, would there be a distinction between commercial and underground? in essecnce does the undergound just do the opposite of commercial artists as a rule? i think without the commercial mc some underground artists wouldn't have content. of course there are artists who do what they do regardless anyway, but what do you think?

 

[nobodyfamous]

sometimes i cant tell the difference. i just browse through soundclick sometimes and i hear cats rapping about their playstation 4's and playing madden 2026 ryding on 40s, and no im not lying i heard this. hehe..a lot of cats who are never heard of or underground try to be commercial n e way. but i would say tru underground artists so to speak stay tru to themselves most of all, b/c there is no need for them to falsify their rhymes to please the commercial market

 

[J-malice]

pboy i hear what you sayin but i think theres a difference between falsifyin your rhymes, and makin rhymes to entertain or to sell. i mean its really a business thing of course yall know about target markets and what not. some people wana hear about playin playstation 4 and ridin on 40s so some people make music for those to buy, others wana hear about life and what others go thru, so some people make msuic for them.

 

[StressWon]

My opinion is that with no Puff Daddy,,there would be no undergorund(to an extent),,,

 

[Shonsteez]

First off you should always respect someone who has tha pride to jus do what he does and nothing less, but there is def a defining difference between underground and commercial - and heres what i think it is at tha moment:

Undergound is basically any cat tryin to come up in whatever genra it is they may be in and as long there still using second hand gear and only makin enough money to get home or none at all for that matter - for tha sole reason to elevate their status as it remains to be then they under.

Commercial is simply tha oppisite. These cats dope or not have made it to tha nex level in one way or another and so your gonna hear their shit on tha radio or tha tv and see as well as hear alot more of them...Its jus tha way tha media works it seems.

Given - there is certain atributes that help make certain sounds be catgorized as under or commercial, but thats really jus tha offspring of whats really going on while tha machine keeps makin money.
I think we all have our preconcieved notions though of what is and what isnt, but tha funny thing about it to me is... that it has to start as under to get to commercial - so something that is strongly underground can have a strict cult following and then suddenly become tha nex big craze simply because enough people expanded tha demographic of who listens to and knows about so-and-so. It could happen to your shit if your lucky, i think its also alot of - tha right time and tha right place as well.

What do you guys think?

 

[Equality 7-2521]

i think it is the opposite.

mainstream is a reaction to underground. when Hiphop was invented, it was an underground movement.

then people started to think, hey we can make some dough of this and converted it into a form that the masses would fall for.

in the end, i dont give a fuck if Hiphop is mainstream or underground. for me, its all in the content of the music. if one of my fav underground artist suddenly started selling millions of records, that doesnt mean i stop liking him because he is mainstream. its just that, usually, to be mainstream, you have to be a wack cunt.

 

[Shonsteez]

Point taken - but i dont think it was always like it is now...tha industry has gotten much more in tune with how to package and sell a genra/look/fashion/music and now its become much more exploitive than it used to be....Given - this still happened before, but now its much more amplified and i would say even worse. So as a result there seems to be even more "wack cunts" that are either being exploited that started as a legitimate descent respectable artist to begin with but money has changed things, or - theres tha seemingly overwhelming amount of "wack cunts" that started as "wack cunts" to begin with simply to make money....All in all its always been a business once tha artist signs a contract - i say before that takes place you really are just a musician and nothing more, but after you make tha descision to become an employee than things can change - not always for tha worst, but things do def. change.



Steeze

 

[Equality 7-2521]

totally agreed.

money is THE factor. always has been always will be.

i think usually, wack cunts have always been wack cunts.....granted some were dope and sold out but mostly they become commercial because of their IMAGE.....thats why they get on TV.....cos not as many people would buy wack cunts shit if they didnt know what they looked like.

oh and let me add that: to me, the definition of underground and commercial is a little different from yours Duece. for example i regularly hear underground Hiphop on the radio......but very rarely on TV. i concider the Television to be the most powerful commercial tool that i can think of today. Therefor you only get on TV if you are commercial. you can still be underground and have new equipment.

 

[Shonsteez]

Like you said - TV is where you become advertised and tha masses can become aware of who are...So tha industry is in charge of that - not tha artists...but it kinda is in tha artists hands as well though - when you consider tha fact that tha artist is tha one who can change what is COOL now and it jus depends on how that becomes capitalized on.
Tha outcome could be real GOOD, or it can go tha WACK CUNT way...thats also 1/2 up to tha artist...
I listen to alot of underground hiphop as well and these days it def. outweighs tha commercial stuff. Usually because of how annoying i find tha mainstream artists to be and tha things that they are saying (more so selling) just doesnt entertain me anymore. Ive noticed though that im not tha only one these days that wants to hear about things other than living as a millionaire, exploiting women, or tha cars they drive. Tha alternate audience is out there and its seeming as though those things arent as cool as they were before. And i have noticed undergound artists that are indipendent and on top of tha food chain on TV everyonce and a blue moon....Its just rare, but they are starting to break through....Like jus tha other day I heard C Rayz on tha local radio....and i was just shocked to even hear it on tha radio cuz all they ever play is tha same shit they do on MTV so that was impressive in its self.
Jean Grae was on MTV2 a couple times and so was Aesop Rock, and EL P...they hosted a whole hour one time, but it was hella late...Go figure.........Anyways i think theres hope out there...Lets jus cross our fingres that they dont become wack cunts too when they hit it big!
And Mess - i didnt mean that you cant have new gear and still be indi/underground....I was jus trying to make a point of how it most often is for a struggling indipendent artist, and at that stage in an artists life you have to be in charge of all tha PR if there even is any on your own...so your not going to be largely distributed etc...


Steeze

 

[StressWon]

Yo Mr Mesenger and Steeze make some crazy, revalations! Shout to both of yall! It's a shame when a artist got skills and then goes to the mainstream and doesn't give it his/her all!

 

[Equality 7-2521]

word up

yo Duece....none of the artists on Def Jux would turn into wack cunts if they made it big.

 

[Shonsteez]

Thats what i feel too....But Money can say otherwise and change even tha dopest cats into freakin herbs.
From tha looks of things i think you can bet that that will never happen with tha Jux Crew or say, Rhymesayers - but im just throwing out there tha fact that it is a possiblity.
Like Slug has come a long ass way from being indipendently owned and harvested from tha trunk of his car in Mpls...And now he has world-wide reckognition and his own clothes, other signed artists, and a record shop(tha 5th element). All that from being a indipendent rapper that didnt give a fuck, but did at tha same time.
I think thats why I like so many cats like those guys at rhymesayers...they are doin what theyre doin to do it and nothing more - maybe a little acknowledgement and some rent money, but not much more than that, more so cuz they know they are rappin about stuff that isnt on TV every day, that isnt as widely accepted.
At least thats how it started for them - Now hes got that album that came out before "sevens travels" called "God loves Ugly" - and he 1/2 signed to Epitaph, and even went on tha Vans warped tour with another well known Undergrounder - "Sage Francis".
Point is i think he'll still stay under and continue to own his label rhymesayers - but at that clutch point in his life he knew that by sign to major player he would get HUGE DISTRO compared to having cats downloadin and buyin from Hiphipsite.com
Everybody needs to get their foot in tha door some how, its just a matter of how smart they play it to maintain their crediblity.




Steeze

 

[thumper 7]

let me insert my humble ....

underground hip hop is not a reaction to anything....

however people have made a choice to keep it a certain way which is why in someways it is stagnant....

also money is NOT the factor...
money contributes to some changes but not all this is total hogwash...How many MC's do this only for fun ..you know the plan is NEVER to quit the job just to record albums for fun and GIVE them away and do shows for FREE

...FOREVER no matter what...thought so

I will say underground does react to mainstream in the sense that anytime more people like it than who people in the underground deem underground the underground destroys it,sacrifices it, and rejects it... which has two effects it either kills the artist or turns them into a commercial success.

 

[Shonsteez]

I was jus tryin to add that money IS A FACTOR....NOT THA SOLE FACTOR THOUGH...
If your gonna be wack - your gonna be wack...Money isnt gonna change shit about that.........
If your gonna do shows for free and never change - then keep doin your thing........But in this case, - just to throw this out there - things can alter a artists perception of if they are still happy with their known status at this point.
For ex., say an artist is just doing his own thing and lovin it jus because it rocks to be having fun performing for people that dig your shit - but then all of a sudden a scout or whatever happens to notice you and likes what he sees...At this point if you are approached and asked if you would like to cut a deal, many artists would automatically decide to make some money at tha same time while having fun - its a logical step to take as long as tha company and tha contract isnt a wack one.
Thats more along tha lines of what i was tryin to get at earlier.

I will say underground does react to mainstream in the sense that anytime more people like it than who people in the underground deem underground the underground destroys it,sacrifices it, and rejects it... which has two effects it either kills the artist or turns them into a commercial success.

this by tha way was a great point though.....I see this as well.



Steeze

 

[Gaz]

''theirs either good hip hop or shit hip hop''