Is This True?
- Thread starter joeburnem
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Definitely. You have to maintain a good gain structure when mixing a record. I usually start with my kicks at -10db, and by the time the rest of the music is in with vocals the song is sitting at -5 or so. It's easy to raise the volume after, but its hard to lower the volume after it's maxed out. Generally the idea is to print your songs at that level so mastering has a little headroom to work with. But if you're not professionally mastering, then just throw an L2 on the stereo bus and pull it down until your track hits 0.
Imo
I would stay in that range if you plan on getting your music mastered (-6db). If you burn your music to disc to bump it yourself or to let someone else hear it, you can stay at 0db. Especially if you take it to the clubs (premastered) to get played. From my experience it's the only way the Dj's will play it consistantly (0db). If they have to turn it up in order for it to bump in the club they won't play it. Dj's will turn shit down but they don't like turning it up.
I would stay in that range if you plan on getting your music mastered (-6db). If you burn your music to disc to bump it yourself or to let someone else hear it, you can stay at 0db. Especially if you take it to the clubs (premastered) to get played. From my experience it's the only way the Dj's will play it consistantly (0db). If they have to turn it up in order for it to bump in the club they won't play it. Dj's will turn shit down but they don't like turning it up.
Beautiful...Swiv, my man! Can't wait to try this! And Thanks to Drama Boi , too!
RigorMortis
Army Of Darkness
ill o.g.
i mix al my stuff at -6 eversince formant told me back in the day and mastering it to 0 db later on..
Fury
W.W.F.D
ill o.g.
yo the hole point to mastering is gettin the sound u want thru eqs compression or w.e u wanna use but to have as close to 0 db as humanly possible why u think the industry tracks are so loud and compressed and watered down cuz they get to zero Dre compresses after everything he compresses at least 6 times and not just an instrument but the hole thing...his former recording engineer told me that
I took an Industry track and extracted to my editor to see the wav pattern.
I noticed that it's much larger and looks clipped or like it was hard limited BUT, it's still at 0. I tried some time ago to pump my shit up then limit it to 0. I got a similar wav pattern but my mix was distorted. But that's probably due to me maxin' out each individual multi -track to 0 and not -6dB.
I noticed that it's much larger and looks clipped or like it was hard limited BUT, it's still at 0. I tried some time ago to pump my shit up then limit it to 0. I got a similar wav pattern but my mix was distorted. But that's probably due to me maxin' out each individual multi -track to 0 and not -6dB.
That's exactly what happen joe. You don't need to be anywhere near clipping before your run the whole mix through a maximizer (limiter). On your limiter you need a fast attack(around 4 or 5ms), auto release, watch your peak meter and let it clip to the first red bar over and then soft clip it to 0db. That gets you at a perftect 0db. That way you raise the volume without raising the levels! You'll get that same waveform with out the distortion.
Formant024
Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
[noob on]
simply put..
consider each track on your mixer (signal) as volume (space, albeit squared) and that its proportions changes when altering eq or gain. Given is the fact that the master 2 track has a maximum size volume (storage) which should fit all the used volumes, each with enough space for their purpose. All together but in different sizes to retain their correct proportions and to maintain shape. If one volume would expands to much, then the other volumes in the "storage"(masterchain) would lose their shape (distortion).
You decide how much space each volume should contain. This implies that all other volumes, within the storage, will become smaller when one volume must become bigger. When a volume is using its maximum capacity and would be forced to shrink into a storage smaller than the content it holds, then it would deform and instantly lose its shape. The content in the storage (master) would be hard to recognize and must be blown out of propertions to give the content any of its original shape left (product quality..lol)
In real talk, you must group tracks so you can monitor the single tracks better and->->-> use hot feeds. Then balance out the groups to almost -.1dB. I work by ear moreoften but its kind of easy when recognizing where the limit is, like my drumgroup is clean around -6dB (depending on the detail i want to give, like a rimtrack allows a lot more low frequencies to boost for a kick or bass). And forget about mastering (mastering on a pc can only be meant for reference, which is good). Learn to mix first, blend your drums so you can limit the use of headroom in order to gain REAL punch. Dirt comes from the source meaning good ol' samplers all having a signature sound. All the synthy stuff...in theory and when working with vintage analogue, you dont need eq or compression to get a good thumping result. Dont believe me ? try some real 808/909 on a club pa without compression (consider the signal processing as the masterchain). The case changes when you get the most out of a triton or a motive, all comes out of one box which is harder to blend or create a signature sound with. Not that the sound would suck (though 808 samples aint nearly as nice next to the real 808) but because all share a common output. There are some solutions, route outputs to a console or a summing amp to get that analogue feel.
[noob]
simply put..
consider each track on your mixer (signal) as volume (space, albeit squared) and that its proportions changes when altering eq or gain. Given is the fact that the master 2 track has a maximum size volume (storage) which should fit all the used volumes, each with enough space for their purpose. All together but in different sizes to retain their correct proportions and to maintain shape. If one volume would expands to much, then the other volumes in the "storage"(masterchain) would lose their shape (distortion).
You decide how much space each volume should contain. This implies that all other volumes, within the storage, will become smaller when one volume must become bigger. When a volume is using its maximum capacity and would be forced to shrink into a storage smaller than the content it holds, then it would deform and instantly lose its shape. The content in the storage (master) would be hard to recognize and must be blown out of propertions to give the content any of its original shape left (product quality..lol)
In real talk, you must group tracks so you can monitor the single tracks better and->->-> use hot feeds. Then balance out the groups to almost -.1dB. I work by ear moreoften but its kind of easy when recognizing where the limit is, like my drumgroup is clean around -6dB (depending on the detail i want to give, like a rimtrack allows a lot more low frequencies to boost for a kick or bass). And forget about mastering (mastering on a pc can only be meant for reference, which is good). Learn to mix first, blend your drums so you can limit the use of headroom in order to gain REAL punch. Dirt comes from the source meaning good ol' samplers all having a signature sound. All the synthy stuff...in theory and when working with vintage analogue, you dont need eq or compression to get a good thumping result. Dont believe me ? try some real 808/909 on a club pa without compression (consider the signal processing as the masterchain). The case changes when you get the most out of a triton or a motive, all comes out of one box which is harder to blend or create a signature sound with. Not that the sound would suck (though 808 samples aint nearly as nice next to the real 808) but because all share a common output. There are some solutions, route outputs to a console or a summing amp to get that analogue feel.
[noob]
T
TheMost
Guest
I know next to nothing about mixing, this is real interesting, i just dont know where to start. I dont know what to apply to wich instrument and how much of each.
Formant024
Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
You must understand that you decide how much detail/accent each instrument should have on the whole and your limit is the peak of the masterchain. To prevent such you must balance your mix, but your mix isnt balanced within a few tweaks, some times you mix over and over and reset a channel to get it right by starting over because other channels changed aswell.
Remember one thing, less is more, less gaining is needed when you feed hot signals to the input of each channel and excessive eq can eat headroom thus reducing the quality on ALL channels.
Remember one thing, less is more, less gaining is needed when you feed hot signals to the input of each channel and excessive eq can eat headroom thus reducing the quality on ALL channels.
Hypnotist
Ear Manipulator
ill o.g.
Yo Formant knows what he's talkin bout.
If anyone's ever listened to me on this forum (haven't posted in a while) you GOTTA remember a couple things:
Don't think that because you have an L2 Limiter/Compressor on your stereo bus, you can get a perfect mix. What you can do is get your "mix" loud and compete with what's on the radio in terms of plain volume. But when you talk about balance, that has to be done on its own BEFORE you use any type of stereo compression, and make sure all your instruments have their own signature before it's mastered. If not, then a loud vocal or even a hi-hat can determine what else is loud in your mix. You can check this by bypassing your L2 compressor and seeing if your actual mix is good without it. If it's not, you still have much work to do.
So listen to formant and swivel when they say to leave headroom when you're actually going to an outside source to get your stuff mastered. If not, then push it all the way to -0.1 with a limiter, and cross your fingers.
If you do push it to the limit, just know that you'll always sacrifice your dynamics, and you can completely lose your kick and bass line when it's squashed at 0dB. For a lesson in dynamics, compare a symphony to a hip hop track or rock track and you'll hear how much volume changes there are. And when it comes to commercial music, when it breaks down to a "perfect mix", you'll notice that everything is present, which is really difficult to achieve, especially when there's a lot going on. Good arrangement of instrumentation before mixing is essential to the mix. A mix engineer loves a songwriter who can designate a particular spot for every sound.
Practice makes perfect. I'm still not there myself. Recognizing that is wisdom.
-Hypno
If anyone's ever listened to me on this forum (haven't posted in a while) you GOTTA remember a couple things:
Don't think that because you have an L2 Limiter/Compressor on your stereo bus, you can get a perfect mix. What you can do is get your "mix" loud and compete with what's on the radio in terms of plain volume. But when you talk about balance, that has to be done on its own BEFORE you use any type of stereo compression, and make sure all your instruments have their own signature before it's mastered. If not, then a loud vocal or even a hi-hat can determine what else is loud in your mix. You can check this by bypassing your L2 compressor and seeing if your actual mix is good without it. If it's not, you still have much work to do.
So listen to formant and swivel when they say to leave headroom when you're actually going to an outside source to get your stuff mastered. If not, then push it all the way to -0.1 with a limiter, and cross your fingers.
If you do push it to the limit, just know that you'll always sacrifice your dynamics, and you can completely lose your kick and bass line when it's squashed at 0dB. For a lesson in dynamics, compare a symphony to a hip hop track or rock track and you'll hear how much volume changes there are. And when it comes to commercial music, when it breaks down to a "perfect mix", you'll notice that everything is present, which is really difficult to achieve, especially when there's a lot going on. Good arrangement of instrumentation before mixing is essential to the mix. A mix engineer loves a songwriter who can designate a particular spot for every sound.
Practice makes perfect. I'm still not there myself. Recognizing that is wisdom.
-Hypno
I read an article on this a few months ago, the original article was to do with the dynamic range of vinyl compared to the dynamic range of digital sources.
Even though digital media has a greater dynamic range, vinyl required tracks to me mastered that actually used the dynamic range it had.
While in the modern day, with digital media the way has been to not use the dynamic range that it provides, but instead to max out mixes and heavily compress and limit to make it loud and notible on the radio. While it stands out, it can also cause ear fatigue. Classical music is a great example of dynamic range, with the volume levels going up and down all the time to change the mood/feel of the song. Low volumes for subtle sections, and high volumes for the drama.
I think the article I read was here on ill, so a few of you have probably already seen it.
Ive learned something from this thread with regard to getting a better mix, I wanna thank Formant and Swivel for that, tricks like theirs go a long way.
Before I was using a limiter to take an already distorted mix and make it not peak. Intead of getting my mix not to peak before adding a limiter or compression.
Thanks for the advice. its invaluable. Peace.
Even though digital media has a greater dynamic range, vinyl required tracks to me mastered that actually used the dynamic range it had.
While in the modern day, with digital media the way has been to not use the dynamic range that it provides, but instead to max out mixes and heavily compress and limit to make it loud and notible on the radio. While it stands out, it can also cause ear fatigue. Classical music is a great example of dynamic range, with the volume levels going up and down all the time to change the mood/feel of the song. Low volumes for subtle sections, and high volumes for the drama.
I think the article I read was here on ill, so a few of you have probably already seen it.
Ive learned something from this thread with regard to getting a better mix, I wanna thank Formant and Swivel for that, tricks like theirs go a long way.
Before I was using a limiter to take an already distorted mix and make it not peak. Intead of getting my mix not to peak before adding a limiter or compression.
Thanks for the advice. its invaluable. Peace.
eldiablo
KRACK HEAD
ill o.g.
me and lil drama was talking about this today, and i found an article that you all might find as a good read.:
ANALOG
In analog it's OK on some material and sometimes useful to go in the "RED ZONE" on the VU meters to produce a fatter sounds. This technique when recorded to analog tape produced a sort of pleasing compression with some instruments such as drums. The "0" on an analog VU meter is the level at which point the recorded sound is generally at optimum and is an average reading which tries to emulate how the human ear perceives how loud something is. There are actually peaks in the sound that can exceed that "0" level by as much as 20 decibels (db) but the meters don't show them. With analog equipment there is overhead built in so it can reproduce peak levels that exceed that "0" level by 14 to 20 db depending on the design, this is the maximum output of that equipment after which heavy distortion usually occurs.
DIGITAL
In digital there is no such thing as going into the "RED ZONE" as this would cause severe clipping and distortion. The same optimum level that registered at "0" VU on analog is now at anywhere from -12 to -20 on the digital meters depending on the design of the recording system. The rest of the meter scale is the overhead up to "0" (Full Scale), over that is clipping (severe distortion). These digital meters read peaks, the maximum level as opposed to analog VU meters which read the average. Getting a fat sound is done another way by use of tube preamps and compressors or by using specialized software plug-ins.
The Reference Level
The "Reference Level" is important to know something about. It is the point of optimum level, the best compromise between noise and distortion on analog and having enough overhead for peaks in digital. Digital systems vary depending on their design. The reference level could be from -12 to -20 below "0". Only a pure tone, a sine wave, will read accurately on both digital and analog since there are no peaks in a sine wave. So if you feed a "0" VU level out of an analog mixer into a digital recorder it should read -12 to -20 depending on the design of the digital system. Likewise if you send a sine wave out of a digital system at -12 to -20 if should read "0" VU on your analog meter. Sending a "0" level signal out of digital into analog will most likely cause the analog equipment to distort. My Protools system for instance is set at a reference level of -18, which means a sine wave at -18 feeding analog equipment with a VU meter will read "0" vu on the analog meter. You need to check your manual that came with your recording system to determine the correct reference level for your equipment. Now there are also variations in equipment outputs and you need to pay attention to that. Most Pro Studio equipment operates at +4 db output when the meter reads "0".
Non professional equipment operates at -10 db when the VU meter reads "0". In order that everything matches level wise you need to make sure everything that is connected together operates at the same level. Some equipment has two sets of inputs and/or outputs, one at +4 and the other at -10. A +4 out must feed a +4 in and like wise a -10 out must feed a -10 in. A level matching converter can be used between 2 units if they are mismatched and you don't have output or input level options.
The Levels To Shoot For
When recording you can never go wrong if you aim for an average level around the reference level and occasional peaks at -6 or below. When mixing shoot for a maximum level of -6 for your mix buss level. I get digital recordings to master that are through the roof at "0". They've already been clipped. The waveform looks like a lawn mower went over the top of them. Everyone is so worried about their record sounding as loud as the next guy that they push the levels past clipping trying to get there, but that's what mastering is for. A good mastering engineer can make it sound loud without clipping.
Why Do I Need To Record So Low In A Digital System?
Well suppose you recorded a sound at "0" or even -3 and wanted to add 6 decibels of EQ, 6 db plus 0 or even -3 is +6 or +3 which doesn't exist, a glass can only be filled to the top-not more, you are now clipping the peaks by that much and causing distortion. Distortion in digital is not nice and rarely wanted If you have many tracks to mix together the sum of the levels is more that the highest level recorded which can be over the "0" level.
Mastering is the stage where the maximum level is set. If you mix at "0" there is no room to go anywhere, you can't restore the clipped waveforms and levels will need to be dropped before any additive EQ can take place and then boosted again causing unnecessary manipulation of the audio.
this was taking from: http://www.viscountrecords.com/pages/rectips.html
ANALOG
In analog it's OK on some material and sometimes useful to go in the "RED ZONE" on the VU meters to produce a fatter sounds. This technique when recorded to analog tape produced a sort of pleasing compression with some instruments such as drums. The "0" on an analog VU meter is the level at which point the recorded sound is generally at optimum and is an average reading which tries to emulate how the human ear perceives how loud something is. There are actually peaks in the sound that can exceed that "0" level by as much as 20 decibels (db) but the meters don't show them. With analog equipment there is overhead built in so it can reproduce peak levels that exceed that "0" level by 14 to 20 db depending on the design, this is the maximum output of that equipment after which heavy distortion usually occurs.
DIGITAL
In digital there is no such thing as going into the "RED ZONE" as this would cause severe clipping and distortion. The same optimum level that registered at "0" VU on analog is now at anywhere from -12 to -20 on the digital meters depending on the design of the recording system. The rest of the meter scale is the overhead up to "0" (Full Scale), over that is clipping (severe distortion). These digital meters read peaks, the maximum level as opposed to analog VU meters which read the average. Getting a fat sound is done another way by use of tube preamps and compressors or by using specialized software plug-ins.
The Reference Level
The "Reference Level" is important to know something about. It is the point of optimum level, the best compromise between noise and distortion on analog and having enough overhead for peaks in digital. Digital systems vary depending on their design. The reference level could be from -12 to -20 below "0". Only a pure tone, a sine wave, will read accurately on both digital and analog since there are no peaks in a sine wave. So if you feed a "0" VU level out of an analog mixer into a digital recorder it should read -12 to -20 depending on the design of the digital system. Likewise if you send a sine wave out of a digital system at -12 to -20 if should read "0" VU on your analog meter. Sending a "0" level signal out of digital into analog will most likely cause the analog equipment to distort. My Protools system for instance is set at a reference level of -18, which means a sine wave at -18 feeding analog equipment with a VU meter will read "0" vu on the analog meter. You need to check your manual that came with your recording system to determine the correct reference level for your equipment. Now there are also variations in equipment outputs and you need to pay attention to that. Most Pro Studio equipment operates at +4 db output when the meter reads "0".
Non professional equipment operates at -10 db when the VU meter reads "0". In order that everything matches level wise you need to make sure everything that is connected together operates at the same level. Some equipment has two sets of inputs and/or outputs, one at +4 and the other at -10. A +4 out must feed a +4 in and like wise a -10 out must feed a -10 in. A level matching converter can be used between 2 units if they are mismatched and you don't have output or input level options.
The Levels To Shoot For
When recording you can never go wrong if you aim for an average level around the reference level and occasional peaks at -6 or below. When mixing shoot for a maximum level of -6 for your mix buss level. I get digital recordings to master that are through the roof at "0". They've already been clipped. The waveform looks like a lawn mower went over the top of them. Everyone is so worried about their record sounding as loud as the next guy that they push the levels past clipping trying to get there, but that's what mastering is for. A good mastering engineer can make it sound loud without clipping.
Why Do I Need To Record So Low In A Digital System?
Well suppose you recorded a sound at "0" or even -3 and wanted to add 6 decibels of EQ, 6 db plus 0 or even -3 is +6 or +3 which doesn't exist, a glass can only be filled to the top-not more, you are now clipping the peaks by that much and causing distortion. Distortion in digital is not nice and rarely wanted If you have many tracks to mix together the sum of the levels is more that the highest level recorded which can be over the "0" level.
Mastering is the stage where the maximum level is set. If you mix at "0" there is no room to go anywhere, you can't restore the clipped waveforms and levels will need to be dropped before any additive EQ can take place and then boosted again causing unnecessary manipulation of the audio.
this was taking from: http://www.viscountrecords.com/pages/rectips.html
Formant024
Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
lol^^^^
im glad topics like this still exist!
im glad topics like this still exist!