How can a workstation synth with a 64 mb rom sound better than a 2 gig software synth

[Cold Truth]

someone, please explain this. the typical stock rom in a workstation synth is 64 mb. (fantom x clocks in at 128, i believe)... and OVERALL, these sounds are much better than yuor sampletank/hypersonic/sonic synth/etc software workstation sounds.

the thing that has me puzzled is that these software synths have gigabytes of sounds.... and relatively, the same number of patches, and yet for whatever reason they arent quite as good as the workstation's sporting a fraction of the information. how is it that the fantom x piano sounds much better than, say the 100mb fazioli grand in kompakt?

anyone know why this is?

i know that deleoping for software is relatively new, and that converters and hardware architecture play a role, but that still doesnt seem to be a realistic reason...


*clarification- i am reffering to your workstation-type, all-around software synths, not dedicated vst's. those are much better, sound-wise, than any hardware piece that i have worked with (quite a few, might i add).

atmosphere, ultra focus (alot like atmosphere- a synth module), usb charlie (organs), battery (drums), and with the exception of a few dedicated synths- i would LOVE to have a virus!- but the sounds in these are every bit as good, or better, than the equivilant sounds you would get in hardware workstation synths...

the one exception to this (that i can think of) is kompakt, which only suffers from a small library and a relatively weak piano as compared to the one included in Kontakt, but kontakt has no strings..... and besides that both are mainly designed as samplers.

they also suffer from a lack of a dedicated effects section. sampletank 2 did a solid job wit hhteirs, and i was initially imoressed, but by and large they disapointed in the long run.... especially when compared to the effects section of any roland synth.....

 

[afriquedeluxe]

hmmm im not really certain. (oh by the way i think the motif es tops it with 175mb of rom).

overall yamaha has alot more money to invest in R&D so i believe they spend more on developing their sounds. i believe more rom doesnt necessarily mean a better sound quality in patches, just as it is that a higher number in ghz on a cpu wont always result in a faster computer, we'd have to take into account the ram,hdd space, operating system etc....
with that said, i think the whole issue with rom is partly to do with pleasing figures for consumers. am not saying the numbers mean nothing, cuz they do affect how good the patches sound, but the number is not the only factor that affects it. like in computers, some 2.5ghz amd processors out-perform a p4 3.2ghz cpu, but intel increases theirs so the average consumer thinks "yeah, this is faster".

 

[Copenhagen]

I'm no expert, but if I had to take a guess, I think it's because everything in the keyboard, incl. ram, algorhythms etc are totally dedicated towards the keyboard and sounds themselves.

 

[Formant024]

No, it's because synths use good converters, giving higher SNR ratios and a engine that is dedicated to merely creating the best algorhtyms. Also because in most cases the blending of a mix containing hardware synth goes through an analogue console or audio farmcard with good ad-da or well embedded mixer. There's a significant difference in outputlevels to give more detail to sound ( sounds more defined ).

A software emulator or pcm based synth depends its quality on a few more items which isn't always in a man's setup. Things like a good farmcard, good rendering engines, good embedded mixers and also rendering a mixdown isnt like your adding voltages, you're adding 0 and 1.

Also one of the reasons you still see neve, amek or ssl consoles with PT setups, they just sound better, pt just records it.

 

[ACEBEATZ]

1 - Sounds in keyboards are compressed and processed while many of vst's aren't cause workin in a Daw mean you'll use Effect yourself so they leave it unprocessed the more they can. It's really better to work with most natural possible sounds so you can give em the shape you like.

But usually you can go in parameter of both synth and vst to cut off reverb or stuff when there is some applied to patches.

2- The soundcard you use, the quality of your converter, what you use to reproduce sounds (headphones or speakers), the quality of the vst, how instruments were sampled in that vst,etc. Everything can affect the audition. I heard crappy synths and modules a lot of time. I heard free VST souding really well, while I own expensive ones that didn't inspire me other things than alien tracks.

A synth is built to work itself so everything (converter, processor,memory,etc.) is fitted for it. Sometimes, for example, the soundcard a guy can have will not be optimized for the vst. There is so much stuff made everyday that software makers cannot build their vst to fit everything perfectly.

3- I know poeple who got full equipped synth workstation and do crap shit and i know poeple who do miracles with fruity loops.

Startin that debate again??? Lol.

Holla Ace

 

[Cold Truth]

no debate here.....

this isnt about fruity loops vs. mpc's..... it isnt that type of thread. i do pretty good work with vst's personally, and i dont "need" anything but a sequencer, controller and sound source. but there is a difference in quality in certain respects, and that is what i am reffering to.

i'm just talking from a purely sounds standpoint. the sounds in sampletank, hypersonic, etc., are effected the same as a hardware patch would be, and with most hardware patches (say, an Atmospheric Grand Piano) you can turn off the effects and additional tones.

but still.... none of these compressed/uncompressed arguments dont answer he question- the fantom xr has some of the best horn patches i have heard yet (admitedly difficult to do as it is), however sampletank has a scant few that are good but to the level of the fantom x's. the sound itself, i do not think, has anything to do with compression or algorythms. in all liklihood, you can remove the processing, hte algorythm, etc.,. and the basic waveform sound would still sound better than that of the effected sampletank horn.... just a theory, i dont have this kind of knowledge in droves like yuo guys do, so im not really arguing yuor points.

 

[Vex]

Your average computer is built for Word Processing, playing games, surfing the net etc...

Your average synth is built to produce professional music...

 

[ACEBEATZ]

Your average computer is built for Word Processing, playing games, surfing the net etc...

Your average synth is built to produce professional music...

A pc is built to calculate codes and WORK. Wether it's games or music he don't know, but the software is built and created over months, same as a synth. Same work to build algorythms or to sample instruments in synth or software. A synth got a computer in it, thinkin the same way a pc would does but programmed only for one job. The processor of the pc is build to do wathever the program will tell it.

Everyday new application are made with computer (Weather watching, in war, graphic editing, 3D Animation,etc.etc.etc.). So your telling that you can do EVERYTHING, DVD burnin, playin games, CREATING MUSIC SOFTWARE for example ( and you know that they probably program SYNTHS with pc's...) BUT not producing music???

A pc use a soundcard to record music: it's not your processor that records it but THE CARD. You know what record music in a workstation? Not the processor but the CARD. You know where it keep the data? Belive it or not but on a hard disk. I ain't sure but i think it's kinda same device used in a computer.

I think this quote as no point, lol.

But, a fact is that noise level is really low in a synth (not talking about older machines) by the same way adding clarity to it. While our pc's and cards generate noise, unless you got big boxes like Pro Tool 001-002 and HD or other kinda stuff or breakout boxes.

Plus, it's true that synths got that analog sound being a lil better than software. Can't deny that.

Holla Ace

 

[Formant024]

I thought I was confusing... Saying a lot and still nothing at the same time lol!

 

[Greg Savage]

get a card with good a/d's you'll be str8.. i use to use Workstations alot i use both now

 

[Cold Truth]

^ this does nothing to answer the question, because it has nothing to do with the question.

 

[Greg Savage]

^ this does nothing to answer the question, because it has nothing to do with the question.

A/d converters.. the A/d converters on these Workstations are built a Certain way... if u get a good A/d converter .. you get them patches to sound good ..Each company has it on Signature Sound with there converters... Most People just get some cheap card and Download/buy huge sounds then walk into GC play on a Workstation and get Wowed

Ace and Forman are on the right track.. alot of that can be looked over if u can Mix but the main Diff is the A/d which i stated i didn't think i;d have to Explain it.. i figured if i said A/d u would get the drift

 

[Cold Truth]

...........

this still isnt it guys... the actual sounds themselves "high" quality or not, THEY JUST MAKE BETTER SOUNDS.

the a/d converters aint got a thing to do with what i am asking. the roland fanom x has some excellent horn samples,for instance; great sections. my sampletank 2 program has completely different patches that arent anywhere near as good.

meaning, the same sounds may sound "better" with different converters or what ever in terms of "punch" or whatever, but they would still be THE SAME SOUNDS, i.e, not as good as the ones roland made for the fantom x. they are different patches completely.

take the raw sample- turn off the effects from a roland trumpet, for example. so the same wiht a sampletank trumpet and the sound of the roland trumpet sounds better, and i am not speaking from the concept of the converters.

 

[Greg Savage]

^^ lol i wouldn't expect Sampletank to have quality sounds like roland in the 1st place.. shop for better sounds.. Do some Sound Design.... www.ilio.com check out the Vienna .. im sorry but Vienna Rips the workstations to me same with Logic's 8 grand orchestra pack..i mean i can take instruments from hypersonic and get them pretty much up to par with motif sounds.. and after the mix is down u can't tell me which
is which

Those Workstation sounds are alreadt Tweaked/ Processed and ready to go.. most things like sample Tank.. hypersonic are not u must process them urself

 

[Cold Truth]

um yeah i know this, i do plenty of basic sound design, i have the symphonic orchestra silver edition... and once again, i am talking abuot the basic waveforms. the sampletank and hypersonic sounds ARE processed (i own both) and when you strip all the preset effect and parameter settings, it sounds much different.

i am not asking for anyone to tell me how to make good sounds, nothing like that, i do a good job of tweaking things to my liking and what and i have spent plenty of time on the hardware/software fence, i just posted asking why there is such a large disparrity of quality when there shouldnt be.

NI Kompakt and kontakt both have an awesome set of preset sounds, kontakt having great hand drum percussion sounds, a very good piano, and guitars, and kompakt having great solo string samples, an awesome rhodes patch, drums, etc..... and hypersonic doesnt match any of these in terms of quality.... so i know these companies CAN make excellent products CONVERTERS HAVING NOTHING to do with it, because the komakt/kontakt sounds are coming from the same sound card as my hypersonic and sampletank sounds, but they arent making high quality, complete workstation type modules. hypersonic and sampletank 2 are great and have excellent strengths.... but they still fall short in areas that hardware modules arent, and i was wondering if there was a reason for it.

whatever the case, i never asked for advice..... i just asked the question of "why".

 

[Greg Savage]

there is a Large Diff because of the Converters and the recording Process each company has thats where there is a Diff thats just common sense one im not tryin be an Ass but thats just common Sense shit.

Steinberg has there budget for Quality same with all the other companies Software and hardware only Sounds that sound damn close to me is Korg Lecagy and its hardware counterpart and Fm7 and its hardware counter part

Plus its a Bizz think if Yamaha put out a Software bundle that Sound exactly or too close to the motiff and charged $500 lol who out there would continue to by Motiff? not many its all about the $$$..Korg and Fm7 did it because those Units are Damn near Extinct/ Discontinued

 

[Formant024]

dude, have you ever played with either an MS20/MS10, PolyXX and/or the wavestation ? I know about the FM7 and I agree that it comes close but that's because it digital already which isnt that difficult in terms of replicatingtat the algorhytms and the FM waveforms. I personaly find FM synthesis not that special, a big revolution back then but its dull and often reminds me of altered beast music on the genesis. I gotta dx100 and its the only dx I want, well maybe a dx1 hehe.

Extinct true, but it's becoming like Harleys, dont buy one if you not willing maintain it.

But... just to contradict you a little bit. Korg did bring out the OASYS pci board which basicly is a wavestation, a prophecy, a trinity and a bit of triton.


@ Cold,

I think what you mean depends on the rendering of whatever software you're using. There's rendering upon mixdown and then there's realtime rendering ( playback ) which both should sound different. The other part depends on how modeling is done this apart from rendering. Like Novation uses their profound ASM modeling in a combo of pcm samples and analogue envelopes + filters. Roland with Variophrase for instance, Korg and their OASYS and whatever they're using now. All differ from one another but if they sound better or not is pretty relative, there's a always something in your mix from which the source ( signal ) isnt as good as the rest in the sources in the mix. They still need to blend in through eq'ing, leveling and compression.

In all, I honestly dont think anyone can really completely answer your question, because its an oem's secret.

 

[Cold Truth]

um yeah i guess there is no real answer, because you guys are talking about converters and mixdowns and modeling and how you have to process the sounds and none of those 'answers' do a thing for the actual question.

i have, personally, sounds that to my ears are perfectly in league with the motif and fantom and lorg sounds.... i have excellent products. dedicated products are excellent; my charlie organ, lounge lizard, symphonic orchestra, and atmosphere vst's are GREAT. every bit as good as any workstation synth i have worked on.

so, obviously, this talk of converters and how it sounds in mixdown or realtime playback and the like isnt the issue.

the question was, why is it that dedicated soft synth products are so good in comparison to hardware modules, but soft workstation style synths suffer so much in comparison?

no offense, and "not to be an ass" but your "common sense" doesnt answer the question at all...because i have software that clearly measures up but i also a particular type that clearly doesnt and they are being used in the same software on the same soundcard doing the same things. nothing in hypersonic or sampletank approaches the rhodes in kompakt or lounge lizard..... it has nothing to do with rendering or the mixdown or a need to tweak or whatever, its just a matter of out-of-the box not as high quality as their hardware counterparts whereas the dedicated pieces shine brightly.

explain how any of these explanations answers that? none of them do. you are trying to answer a question that wasnt asked.

 

[Greg Savage]

i have, personally, sounds that to my ears are perfectly in league with the motif and fantom and lorg sounds.... i have excellent products. dedicated products are excellent; my charlie organ, lounge lizard, symphonic orchestra, and atmosphere vst's are GREAT. every bit as good as any workstation synth i have worked on..

Same here i know what u mean i use those aswell "Tassman" is a baddass

question was, why is it that dedicated soft synth products are so good in comparison to hardware modules, but soft workstation style synths suffer so much in comparison?

OK ur right i totally misunderstood i apologize i thought u were sayin Why do Certain Companies synths sound better or worse to other companies Synths / hardware units// that was my bust sorry and to answer ur question "i have no clue" it could be a number of things call em up


and yes Forman i've used a MS20/MS10 and a PolyXX and to me they sound pretty close