HIP HOP! what is it to you?

[Formant024]

Thats cool. But i doubt a japnoise person can really grasp the significanee of 2 pacs lyrics.
I know this sounds kinda racist and i dont intended it to.
But sometimes i really worry if people outside the African american or urban american culture really understand the context of hip hop.
Imagnie me getting real hevey into irish music. I mean i can love it and cheris it but no matter how much i listen to it i doubt i could have the same apperication for it as someone from ireland. Thats becasue it was created for irish people in that context.
Its just strange to go differnt places in the world and seeing people trying to dress, look, and talk like me.
But on the other hand i understand where u guys are coming from too. Casue I myself am a classical pianist and I LOVE classical music just as much as hip hop. I still think that its a little differnt though casue classical music(as well as other types of music) do not have a culture attached to it. You dont have to appericate German culture to understand and appericate am aria by bach. Where as i feel u do have to understand black american culture to really grasp the meaning of 2pac or public emeny.
class...
P.S(again im not trying to offend anyone just stateing my opionion)

I personaly dont care for colour, everythings grey to me. The context of hiphop to me has nothing to do with the history of the afro american culture, but with progression. If hiphop would emphasize on the history of the afro american culture we'd all be pessimists cuz it's a sad history. I can't be bothered or to take the black history in my consideration simply because I didn't live it to judge it. In my idealogy of hiphop there's no emphasizing on race indeed, but with the perspective that black dont even rap about blacks but refer a person instead. It's different today though, it's typical to ridicule white people in hiphop videos while I believe that it's a reaction to a damage given. There's the right to it but there's also a point where the same perspectives cross and deliver the same result, seperation.

To give an example, I dont live in the us but overhere it's pretty common to walk the street and seeing/meeting a lot of different ethnics on the street. If I was to go to an airport chances are doubled seeing/meeting different ethnics. ( now just to point out how much I care about chart music hehe ) There's this video by Kanye West on which he drops this girl at the airport or she drops him at the airport, whatever. I dont know the chorus or tracktitle because I compulsivly swap channles or mute the noise but...There's no other race to be found in the videoclip except for the white security @ the metal detector, which is being stereotyped by a typical black case of stereotypicing. A white man, portaited as a donut eating, coffee drinking, low IQ having, unschooled asshole taking a pick on black at the airport. This can be reality, these people excist and the certainly did a decade ago but...

Point 1. Black people can be customs security too.
Point 2. Why arent there any races to be seen throughout the whole video or @ the airport.

Maybe its his ideal to live in a completly black world but it's for from the reality.

I took an extreme example here, I'm definitly not saying that the whole black community within hiphop intents to profile their perspective ( if! they're pointing out a message or moral ) with such negative aspects. But it does happen a lot, less obvious than the Kanye West example when at these times you wont find any videoclips displaying any discrimination since it would not be tolerated by Mtv or other media broadcast available.

Now back to the subject

They make Irish music all around the globe, the appreciation is just as big. My father plays classical gipsy flamenco but he's far from spanish, it's not appreciation. If you like music than it's an obsession or hobby. It's up to the person. But Class, Ima call you conservative from here hehe, because you look at things from a historical point of view, its retrospective. You're right but we live now, if you take out the thought that result goes with original than you're progressive.

Its just strange to go differnt places in the world and seeing people trying to dress, look, and talk like me.

You are an african american living the hiphop in the US. A lot of people are not but are still into hiphop. Then there's the same difference outside the US as in the US, mainstream and underground. The difference is that they're not all black or even talk english/american, but the cats into the mainstream hiphop will live it the same way the black community does in the US. That is stupid, but hell, it's their life Im not the fool in this. That's the underground concensus, people knowing what real life is about, but we're talking kids here in the mainstream or people that never really grew up along the process. The people I know and are credible for what they do/know dont really dress like this, just casual or professional, highly educated or not. Hiphop influences their life, but not their opinion which makes them ech an individual. We do wear the brands at times but as far as I know it the brand that determins if a person's biased underground or mainstream, co-ordinated by fashion trends. I wouldn't be wearing FUBU, SBM etc. I got some Ecko though, but besides that it's aem kei, mecca, dub and survival/outdoor clothing. Pretty casual stuff.

Last thing I'd like to add, any non US talking slang is a fool. That shit is so rediculous, I mean, I've had a lot of american collegues and after some time you adapt to their vocabulary, intonation and accent. That can happen, but a foreign kid/dude that could barely have a reasonable conversation in english shouldn't start slanging away, not outside the US or even in the US.

I mean tjeez what is the world coming to.

 

[classic]

a little long but bare with me

The context of hiphop to me has nothing to do with the history of the afro american culture, but with progression

I don’t know about that one format. I think the total opposite. I think hip hop has everything to do with the African American culture and expernice. Most the Western modern music that we here today (as your article pointed out) was started by African Americans. gospel, Blues, jazz, rock n roll, R&B, Disco, Funk ,hip hop. Most of this music was born out of oppression and struggle. Now again Im not trying to turn this into a race debate. But I strongly believe the inner-city black youth are the engines behind hip hop.

Now I do agree with you about progression. I am a 23, a black male and I’m in graduate school. Its sad so say but that is very rare. I still feel more hip hop today then when I was growing up in my urban environment. But I still feel I have a real connection with hip hop because of my past as opposed to someone outside of my culture. I have really lived breathed and seen the struggle that hip hop so often describes.
Not violence, drugs and all that stuff(which ive seen to) but the bigger struggle against the system of oppression. I think that this is what hip hop represents

If hiphop would emphasize on the history of the afro American culture we'd all be pessimists cuz it's a sad history.

I strongly disagree with this one format
I don’t that afro-American history is sad at all. If anything I think it is the ultimate underdog story. Despite the countless setbacks, trials, and wrongs that have been done to us we are still here. That’s a testimate to the cultures resiallance. This can be reflected in the linage of music that has been created by afro Americans. Hip hop is no different.

Now again I must state that Hip hop is a Subset of afro-American culture. Many African Americans don’t understand hip hop just as a Japanese kid wouldn’t understand hip hop. It’s something that has to be in u. But IMO the “soul” that it prevalent throughout afro-American culture is an essicanhal ingredient for true hip hop

classic

 

[Formant024]

Ehm, you've wrote that on my first 2 lines ? No offense but I think you've misinterpretted my post or didnt read it. I feel what you're saying but it's passing the subjected issues in this debate.

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Man this is Heavy.....since I am a Roots Hip Hop Head and have seen it change and evolve.....I believe a turning point was.....when I attended the Spitkickers Tour about 4 or 5 years back....Common...Tribe Called Quest and some others.....I took a look around the crowd and there were not too many brothers in the crowd or remnants of what that crowd looked look even 5 years b4 or even 10 years preceding it....it made me wonder have those or mostly those that had the greatest impact on the art abanded it......what happened????.....but I somewhat agree with classic about the roots and where it began.....on a real level most of what he said is how it is though, plain and simple.....not to say that some kid with a computer and being immersed by enuff hip hop music couldn't keep it real....or even reading enuff hip hop articles and learning how to emulate what they hear and history could be keeping it real......but it's sort of an imitation if you ask me and it's happening all over.......so I dunno what's happened to hip hop, but I must respect the old heads and producers that are keeping it real when there's so much junk out here today that dilutes hip hop music....lots of crossover producers from other genres producing hip hop but they have no clue or basis of what they are doing when they try splicing in other genres and serving up concotions that do not sound like what I want hip hop to sound.....I think for the most part hip hops music is more universal than a lot of the Lyrics, themes and other things that some would say is on a Real level than what most people could identify with.....or the part that I hear a lot of people try to separate....
I do agree on the point of Tupac and a lot of people not identifying......even when he hit the scene though there were a lot of foundation...Tru Skool heads that couldn't identify with PAC even during his heyday......I guess this discussion probably is one of the most contraversial.....but it should be discussed if you ask me....that's how to keep it Truly Real

 

[DJ Reflex]

Ok lok i think that hip hop is a result of afro-american culture! thats undeniable! but with the changes that it has taken and the way it has been interpreted around the world has meant that it is something more than this. It now is only partly about afro-american ghetto culture but with mcs in france etc it is now a culture for those who like its style, ethics, and sound etc. To say that its still about the ghetto and hard-times is crap! hell most hip hop is also about love! relationships etc! and u cant tell me this is only to be found in the ghetto. I agree that some kid making hip hop is not hip hop but makes hip hop beats, but if he is educated in its background, follows its culture, style, lives and breathes it (not talking about wiggers! cos they're just assholes lol) in a way that allows them to make it their own then they have every right to call themselves "hip hop" as much as a socially economically disadvantaged person from the ghetto! why? because hip hop is no longer about the ghetto! it is all things to all people! I believe a foreigner in europe etc listening to hip hop can get as much out of it as someone in the ghetto! people love country music all over the world and get equally as much out of it without growing up in texas or summit! Battling is not only ghetto relevant! neither is grafiti or djing! these are all relevant no matter where you are! I think fashion is just a way of indicating you belong to hip hop culture like if you are wearing triple 5 soul, u can tell that person likes hip hop! it doesnt mean they wanna be a gangsta or necessarily have to be black! you can find white people in adverts for such companys often.

"I'm not sayin I think a japanese person can grasp 2 pacs lyrice either" - Fantom

Why not? u dont think a japanese person can sympathise with the lyrics? if he knows about the ghetto and is well educated then they can always sympathise! just because they haven't experienced it doesnt mean they cant sympathise.

"And in fort green brooklyn there's a big emergrnce of asian peeple with dreads livin there. And heavy into hip hop culture. " - Fantom

And is there anything wrong with this? this shows how hip hop can be all things to all poeple! it shows its accesability and its ability to break barriers! and of how its accesable to all!

At school we study the ghetto as part of a class known as Modern Studies. in this course the ghetto is covered heavily under a topic known as "Ethnic minorities in the USA". in this topic we look at political social and economic progress, affirmative action and more.I know that despite recent gains the black community has not acheived parity in representation. As 12% of the population there should be 12 black senators not one. 52 members of the house of representatives and not 39.I know blacks mainly vote democratic regardless of wealth.I know about the glass ceiling in employment for blacks and their struggle to gain top jobs in businesses. I know of the higher than average levels of unemployment, lower educational acheivement, discrimination in employment opportunities and in promotion of welfare cutbacks etc.I know of the white flight that has led to these run down ghetto areas! what im trying to say is just because you arent from the USA or the ghetto doesnt mean you cant sympathise with hip hop!
peace!

 

[The Bastard]

basically i just think theres a big difference between goin out sprayin graf and livin hip hop then seeing it done on a dvd liking it and thinkin your hip hop.like i said before its impossible to say african americans didnt start hip hop cuz all you have to do is look at the history, however like i said before ,the race dont really matter to me as long as they commin from the same mind state as hip hop,struggle opression and being the underdog isnt strictly something that only african americans have experienced . but when i go to a show and i see theese malibu most wanted rappers from outta greenwich connecticut it gets me a little heated, I think Hip hop is basically a culture that has something valid to cry out about and if you dont have sumthin valid to cry out about maybe your not hip hop.

 

[DJ Reflex]

Im not trying to say that you can watch a dvd and be hip hop! i think it takes alot of dedication and sacrifice to be hip hop. im no way saying u can just listen to it and be it! but as u said its a state of mind! and i think that state of mind can be felt by others than just blacks form the ghetto!
my opinion anyway!

 

[StressWon]

If ya never sprayed a piece or hit up a tag,,,,,,,,you aint Hip Hop

If ya never freestyled or battled with a group of cats,,,,,,you aint Hip Hop

If ya never touched two Turntables and bought a piece of Wax,,,,,,you aint Hip Hop


If ya never even tried to "Break",,,,,,You aint Hip Hop



....what I'm gettin at is if you never even put ya heart into any of the above mentioned,,,,,YOU AINT HIP HOP!

 

[inrctyhoodmusic]

It doesn't matter what race you are is a slight understatment with the polotics in this industry....Hip Hop I belive s not a way of life it is the music in in general raps and beats combined is hip hop it's not a way to live , act dress walk or talk..I also belive that it belongs to black people but just like hockey belongs to whites there are a few black people that play just like in hip hop
(scot storcth Marshal Mathers)it's nothing wrong with it at all but when you have a white rapper that can get his songs played on rock and roll stations as well as hip hop stations that is the powers that be playing the race card....And the best race card line I ever heard came from mack 10"if i was white and called my mama a bitch it wouldn't have took me this long to get this rich"

As far as the meaning of sucess in music is to make a lot of money and be well respected in this industry as far as people thinking having fun is acomplishing sucess fun don't pay bills and if anyone thinks havin fun = being sucessful are just doing this as a hoby without being serious about this whole music thingand plan on doing something as as means of survival!

 

[classic]

another long one(bare with me i make some points)

in a way that allows them to make it their own then they have every right to call themselves "hip hop" as much as a socially economically disadvantaged person from the ghetto! why? because hip hop is no longer about the ghetto! it is all things to all people! I believe a foreigner in europe etc listening to hip hop can get as much out of it as someone in the ghetto!

Your right its not just the ghetto, But I think your missing a key point. Like u said earlier, country music is played all around the world But the folks in Nashville and texas are still the heart and soul if the music. That’s because that’s were the roots are. It’s the same thing for hip hop.

Don’t get me wrong man.. Im all for hip hop spreading around the world but I honestly think that people outside urban America don’t understand SOME of the issues that are being discussed in hip hop music. That’s because they are not in that environment.


I will use 2pac as and example again. Some guy in Germany, Iceland or even suburbia USA, may love Pac because of his voice and charisma and lyric’s. But I love Pac because of his message and the struggle and pain u can here in his voice. With songs like Brenda’s got a baby or dear mamma I can relate to those issues because I have seen crack and teenage pregnancy, and violence devastate my community. I’m not trying to turn this into a “keep it real” thread. I’m just stating the facts. I find it extremely hard to believe that someone who is not from that environment can relate to pac on the levels that I do simply because they “listen” or “study” his music. I think there is more to it then that.
This is and extreme case, but I just wanted to use that as an example. Hip hop as a whole is like this. Im not saying that you can’t appreciated hip hop. Do u man. But I think that there are some issues in hip hop that people outside urban black American will not understand because they haven’t lived it.

I know about the glass ceiling in employment for blacks and their struggle to gain top jobs in businesses. I know of the higher than average levels of unemployment, lower educational acheivement, discrimination in employment opportunities and in promotion of welfare cutbacks etc.I know of the white flight that has led to these run down ghetto areas! what im trying to say is just because you arent from the USA or the ghetto doesnt mean you cant sympathise with hip hop!
peace!

I disagree with this reflex. Just because U know and read about something doesn’t necessarily mean that you understand its full impact.
For example, I moved to Baltimore last year from Florida and I had never seen snow before. Now I had read all about driving in snow and I have heard about it from my family. Hell I even went out and got all the proper equipment. But not until that first snow came did I really understand how difficult and tricky it was. I had to learn the hardway to always have an ice pic in my car and to always break waaaaayyyyy early.

Many aspects of Hip hop are the the same way man. Some aspects are universal but others you cant fully understand it unless u live it. the whole “racism” issue for that matter is like that(but that’s a whole different thread lol!!)

class...

 

[DJ Reflex]

Ok classic! i agree with you man! i really do! while someone may understand issues doesnt mean they know them! when i said they can sympathise i suppose i know myself you cant expect to understand the difficulties of the ghetto. only someone in that situation can understand that. by sympathise i meant, being able to feel another artists pain and emotion simply because of the way they rhyme and lets face it thats why pac's so famous! he has the ability to make people sympathise not experience. And i guess as someone who feels like ive grown up always listening to hip hop! always practicing the four pillars and living "hip hop" i feel i am hip hop. and theres a part of me in that last post trying to defend that feeling. I am hip hop! we all are but youre right i wont ever understand the ghetto struggle or the feelings portrayed in lyrics as much as i can sympathise with them. But i suppose i dont feel you have to be able to to be "hip hop"
peace and love man!
im enjoying this thread! got me hooked lol! like 10th time today! lol

 

[classic]

Yea this is a good thread and im glad u brought it up. I enjoy heathly discussion.

Remember all the stuff im stateing is from my perspective. Someone elses maybe totally differnt


class...

 

[Copenhagen]

Could u imagine years from now a black man rappin and some 1 sayin "u doin white music"

What do you mean? We all know Eminem started Hip-Hop and these afro-americans are just copying his style... JUST PLAYING!

Its just strange to go differnt places in the world and seeing people trying to dress, look, and talk like me.

You don't need to go any further than outside your own front door to see that. People trying to be "Hip-Hop" is all over. A plaque that followed with "Hip-Hop's" fame in the mass media.

Many "real" hip-hoppers in e.g. Denmark won't look like you, only the fakes ones or those who became a hip-hopper after watching 8 Mile will. Alot dress more subtle, and a lot of e.g. European countries have defined their own "Hip-Hop" in a way that better suits their country, environment etc, and I also see/hear a lot of them, who don't really care much for US Hip-Hop, especially with all the mainstream stuff going on at the moment.
Music wise, it actually seems to me, that e.g. Europe, and many other places are generally trying to keep their stuff more underground and doing it well.
I even read an review of a an MC from Philly who was now produced in Denmark, where the closing lines were, "and we thought Philly Hip-Hop had died, but now it seems that it had just moved to Copenhagen"...and that was in an Australian review.

You don't see many people in Europe trying to make a dollar off of Hip-Hop, because there isn't much money there, which creates a tendency to make some raw stuff.

My point is, our Hip-Hop is just different that yours in some areas. We have interpreted it in another way that fits us and adapts to us, and I think we're doing a good job.

Anyways, I agree with DJ reflex and Formants a long way down the line.
To some extent, I also agree with you Class aka Mr. Tucker, but you think too black and white for my personal taste. Like Formant, I see grey

 

[classic]

Some good ish cope. YOur right about me not seeing the entire euporpean culture. We dont see that over here like u guys see our stuff.

Anyways, I agree with DJ reflex and Formants a long way down the line.
To some extent, I also agree with you Class aka Mr. Tucker, but you think too black and white for my personal taste. Like Formant, I see grey

I will be the first one to admit that my view on hip hop as well as other issues it tainted by issues of black and white. Sadly most things that come out of America are effected by racial issues. Hip hop is no different. Sadly that’s the American way And I will be the first to admint that I have a racial view about this topic and most of the other important topics in my life. Thats all i know.

To be honest 99.9% of the hip hop created, mainstream or underground, was originally ment for urban Afro-Americans. Cooperate American got a hold of this formula and “marketed” this urban image to make it appealing for the masses.

Take a look at all the urban imagry you see on T.V. today. From sports to video games, urban black america has been neatly packaged and marketed around the world so much so that people from other places really feel that they understand urban black american culture. But they don’t understand it at all. They are just trying to mimic sterotypes. They dont understand the stuggle behind the image. Basically thery are getting the fluf with out the “realness”. They have no context to base the actions and music that they are trying to mimic

I really got a chance to see this when I traveled to Europe. It was amazing to see dudes really trying to look dress and talk like me. It also was crazy because most of the people I ran into had never really met a black American(let alone a youg black American male).
This is because most of my colleagues are either dead or in jail. Young black American men don’t travel much
SO there reaction to me was a combination of aww and fear. So here I am in the middle of the UK with white and black kids that are looking and dressing like me. But afraid of me??? But yet they are telling me that they understand my culture and background??? That’s a weird catch 22 lol. The same exact thing goes on in white suburbia here but I just wasent pre-pared to encounter that world wide from differnt ethernicities(notice i said Blacks also)

Back to the topic
This issue goes a lot deeper then hip hop. Its a symptom of the fucked up American system that is base on race. And since that system is the basis for world media it is spread everywhere.

Main point
Refllex,Cope Equaltity,Format, I don’t want u guys to think im trying to take anything away from yall. I understand that things are different over their and race my not be the same as it is here. I know that a lot of u guys take hip hop just a seriously as anybody over here. Most of this stuff is just my humble view, Keep doing yall thing and maybe someday things will change.

Keep banging

class..

 

[DJ Reflex]

word! there are alot of these wannabes around! they dress in fubu gear have the fake bling! but i must agree with copenhagen, people who are real hip hop heads over here show it much more subtly. And the lack of succesful commercial rap has led to a raw underground culture that has thrived in many places especially france! The US being the universal marketplace that it is has influence all round the world, and with channels such as MTV base etc the commercial image of hip hop and rap is what is believed to be real by many. And you guys dont get to see what thewhole culture is like over here. so i propose we organize an illmuzik world tour traveling to places where hip hop thrives all over the world! lol and fade can pay for us all to go with the money he makes from the t-shirts!! lol
Anyway its all gud classic and fingers crossed it will change! or do we want it to? will that mean itll become mainstream?!?!?!?!? :~ lol jus messin!
word!

 

[Formant024]

Are people calling me Format for a reason ? Its not a typo, the N really goes there lol !!!

Class, next time you travel to the east you better pm some of us to give you a serious tourist detour.

 

[Equality 7-2521]

Class: woul d you hold the exact same views if you were a white american?

 

[classic]

Class: woul d you hold the exact same views if you were a white american?

Probobly not becasue i wouldent have the same outlook and experinces that i have had being a black american.

Class, next time you travel to the east you better pm some of us to give you a serious tourist detour.

I will be sure to look u guys up the next time in eurpoe(next spring) My next major trip is to Afican this novermber. That should be intersting. Even though Africans look like me. I will be dealing with the EXACT same issues!




class.......

 

[afriquedeluxe]

My next major trip is to Afican this novermber. That should be intersting. Even though Africans look like me. I will be dealing with the EXACT same issues!


class.......

hey which part of africa you going to, i got some family up in uganda. and when you coming back to europe, we could meet up in london or sumtin.
oh yeah african hiphop is also kind'a kicking off too, check out this site with some mp3s
http://www.musicuganda.com/songs/index.htm
and this producer from there http://www.stevejean.net

 

[Equality 7-2521]

Probobly not becasue i wouldent have the same outlook and experinces that i have had being a black american.
class.......

wouldnt that then mean that your view point is not objective?

btw....how do you do multiple quoting?