I can dig it!
Death of Sampling=Watering down of hiphop
- Thread starter God
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I can dig it!
slik da relic
RS Jedi
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 1
thx Sucio... i think we give ol' skool artists too much power bcuz we ARE takin direct samples of their stuff... of course on the other hand, if u sample MY shit directly, im comin after yo ass too... lol... might be hipocritical, but yo, twist it up and u might not get chased... and the fact that ur payin artist AND record company, AND creator makes it harder to use the sample, not to mention u gotta wait for permission 1st as well... the laws will never make some of us stop, its in our blood to sample.
da relic
da relic
Thats a good point!!! I wanted to resist but , I mean hey.. MPC's move crowd's , but I feel you right where ya commin from on that lol.
Respect on stickin with Yamaha, that was one of my first machines
haha I feel you..
Great vid btw.
Honestly slik, The RS people Owe you money cuz thats a nice machine I wouild have never F'd with otherwise..
They ought to pay cats for advertisin shit with their machine FREE on youtube. Makin hotter shit than their"Demo mode" people do. lol. Good example of knowing your equipment..
Back to topic..
I think music in general has been watered down.
They screwed all the great artists before. They will def do it now.
Iono man..
All I see is the industry lookin for cats like I hear around here , but they dont wanna let them do what they do.
slik da relic
RS Jedi
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 1
there's another reason samplin isnt the mainstream choice anymore... the success of Lil John's beats made everyone run out and buy virtual analog synths... at one point it was all kinda even... but slowly the synth overtook the sampler... yea, we got Just Blaze and Kanye... but the Preemos, RZAs, and even Dre aint around like they used to be... the Neptunes and Scott Storch's success affected eveything as well... not many people give samplists credit anyway... i didnt start off samplin, but samplin just sounds Hip Hop to me... especially East Coast, NYC, NJ Hip Hop... if u dont do it, u'll never understand how complex it can be.
i feel samplin will 4ever be here, but it will be more on an underground level until we use other techniques... thats what needs to be promoted.
thx Rel... damn... its hard bein serious with fake Rel...lol
da real
i feel samplin will 4ever be here, but it will be more on an underground level until we use other techniques... thats what needs to be promoted.
thx Rel... damn... its hard bein serious with fake Rel...lol
da real
samples and synths mixed is the way to go...chopping about 2 secs worth, loop it to create some kind of sound...add and layer synth sounds to make it all come together and make sense....funny thing though, I been trying to sample less for a stinch, and just when I decide to do that I get two request for "smif-n-wesson/d.i.t.c" sampled style beats...sigh. I think there needs to be alot more synth based beats for east coast type rappers. I think a beat can be heavily synth based and still have the swagger that sampled beats have...you just gotta get freaky with it.
It seems theres always generally 2 schools of thought in regards to sampling....Maybe 3 i suppose.
Some people really dig just finding ill samples and using them in their entirety if they sound good - the whole if it works dont change it perspective....
Then theres of course subcultures of this school that like to fuck with whole breaks and loops and also fuck with little tid-bits....
Then theres the people that think its not fresh unless u mangle the sample to the extent that its unrecognizable....
I like to do both in my case. If it sounds dope, i dont really care what peoples thoughts are in regards to it being complex or simple. As long as my head can knod and i can smoke a blunt to it or bump it in my whip thats all that matters...
Some people really dig just finding ill samples and using them in their entirety if they sound good - the whole if it works dont change it perspective....
Then theres of course subcultures of this school that like to fuck with whole breaks and loops and also fuck with little tid-bits....
Then theres the people that think its not fresh unless u mangle the sample to the extent that its unrecognizable....
I like to do both in my case. If it sounds dope, i dont really care what peoples thoughts are in regards to it being complex or simple. As long as my head can knod and i can smoke a blunt to it or bump it in my whip thats all that matters...
Totally agree as well Skid....
I like when some artist sample themselves and then play back the chops or play the keyboard parts in a choppy sequenced feel sometimes, which basically lends itself to that sound....
God
Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
This statement sums up the the point of my post. The money is in clearing recognizable samples. To me - hip-hop was based on that form of expression. For example, taking dope James Brown samples, fattening them up with some kicks and rapping over it WAS hiphop.
Also, a sample from a hit-song that is recognizable - like Puffy used to do with "Mo' Money Mo' Problems" or The Police samples he used - is the whole point of using a sample. It is using one hit song to create another hit song... the hiphop song "borrowing" the chorus/hook from the older hit. That's instant social proof for the song, and instant money in the bank because people liked the original song, and a new audience will like the hiphop cut.
Dre used a ton of awesome samples from various RnB artists for one of the most important albums in history: "The Chronic".
I don't see how one can clear that many samples anymore at a low cost or with the mentality "just release it - and let them sue us - we'll force them into a bargaining position". The budget on that album would be insane now - think of how much Dre would have to pay for clearing all the samples. If "The Chronic" was released now, the cost/benefit of clearing the samples would probably make the album unprofitable, or a decision would be made that it would be unreasonable to release it expecting a proper return on investment.
This is why there is a resurgence in songwriting and original production in hip-hop. Which begs the question - wasn't the whole point of hip-hop in the beginning... the novelty and coolness of rapping over a recognizable sample? It was fresh and new. Eric B. and Rakim was fresh and new. Now it's stagnating.
It comes down to the crux of hiphop. Hiphop was created by cats in the ghetto that didn't have access to all the musical equipment, but they had tons of natural talent. How can they express it if they can't even afford a good drum kit or guitar rig? They started with an MPC and sampled shit - then rapped over it. It caught on and became a popular artform. In its "golden years" people on the outside viewed hiphop as a fad. They didn't take it seriously and didn't sue for the samples - until the Biz Markie case. It ain't a fad anymore, hiphop is a multi-billion dollar industry.
(Actually - anything "borrowed" from the original hiphopheads... Southern bluesmen like Howlin' Wolf, etc. is a multi-billion dollar industry. Any form of modern music using a three chord basis or the minor-pentatonic scale needs to respect the blues who do not get credit for the music. In fact, people need to know the real roots of the blues and why it's called that... but that's a different story. It's ironic to see how music used to express a people's pain and suffering can cause an entire industry of self-infatuated artists and agents minting billions.)
But now hiphop to pay the big bucks to clear the sample... for real.
I don't like what's going on. But guess what? My opinion doesn't matter, since hiphop is marketed to kids - who don't generally know shit about the generation before them (except for a few), and as kids - they're generally self-focused. So what they hear now is "new" and "fresh" to them. It's validated by the radio and TV, and then the kids internalize the marketing.
20 years from now I'll hear people saying how Lil' Jon was a genius for using a Nord-lead synth and "borrowing" lines from techno and that those were the good ol' days.
(Shakes head.) It's still a business - and the point is that recognizable samples, samplers and creativity brought hiphop to where it is today. Where will it go next?
^^^^^Yes sir, I knew you were talking about that aspect of sampling. That's the original way of doing it....the true way in my opinion.
For what some people sample for these days, dirty kicks, snares, hats, percussions etc., you can buy as sample kits. I advise anyone who can afford it to get NI Kore 2, shits amazing in it's tweak ability and ways to dirty things up if need be. Not to mention they 8 variations for damn near every sound. The new hip hop arsenal is a BEAST. No need to rip them from vinyl yourself unless u just think it's the thing to do. I have BFA's Wall of Vinyle 1 & 2 and if you can't get what you need from it u just don't want it!
I don't know, maybe I'm just old school but if I sample and old record I might rearrange the original melody but I want people to "know" its from an old school song. Not necessarily which song I used but I want them to be puzzled trying to find out where I got it. Since that's dead and gone I choose not to sample. If I do it's only for funny. I do pretty damn good without sampling anyway and to be honest, it takes more creativity for me to compose a track. Thumbing around with chords and riffs when you basically have ZERO musical theory and getting it to sound good is hella challenging and keeps me wanting to do this. If I knew everything about music, the theory and the does and don'ts , I don't think I would be still trying to make it happen. There's something about having real musicians vibe to what u do when u have waaaay less training than they have.
I know a few people with training in classical music. The can play their ass off but can't create an original work to save there lives!
For what some people sample for these days, dirty kicks, snares, hats, percussions etc., you can buy as sample kits. I advise anyone who can afford it to get NI Kore 2, shits amazing in it's tweak ability and ways to dirty things up if need be. Not to mention they 8 variations for damn near every sound. The new hip hop arsenal is a BEAST. No need to rip them from vinyl yourself unless u just think it's the thing to do. I have BFA's Wall of Vinyle 1 & 2 and if you can't get what you need from it u just don't want it!
I don't know, maybe I'm just old school but if I sample and old record I might rearrange the original melody but I want people to "know" its from an old school song. Not necessarily which song I used but I want them to be puzzled trying to find out where I got it. Since that's dead and gone I choose not to sample. If I do it's only for funny. I do pretty damn good without sampling anyway and to be honest, it takes more creativity for me to compose a track. Thumbing around with chords and riffs when you basically have ZERO musical theory and getting it to sound good is hella challenging and keeps me wanting to do this. If I knew everything about music, the theory and the does and don'ts , I don't think I would be still trying to make it happen. There's something about having real musicians vibe to what u do when u have waaaay less training than they have.
I know a few people with training in classical music. The can play their ass off but can't create an original work to save there lives!
Quality
Godson of the Clapper
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 19
Yo what is that BFA wall of vinyl you speak of?? Sounds interesting...especially cause I have to wait until I can afford a converter from my mac to my tables.
Great post GOD.
A lot of the people here at ill have known this to be the case for quite some time.
It only takes a bit of deduction and conversation on a hiphop forum before someone mentions the dumbing down of hiphop and the way samples are not used as much anymore.
A situation creating by greedy copyright holders(usually corporate) that pushed the price of samples through the roof. Thus impacting on the investment variable in the ROI equation. Obviously with a greater investment a greater return is required to break even. And with the sales of all music in decline, the big bucks to pay for things like sample clearance is diminishing.
A solution to the problem as I see, is that the composers, really have to step their games up.
The composition art in hiphop I feel although some artists have been doing this for some time ie The Roots,
the general hiphop creating community is still new to the art of composition and needs to develop it as an art to the point it isnt so easily recognisable as composed and it aint so simple(ie dumb sounding).
As for Kanye, he is no longer hiphop.
After bitching at awards ceremonies for not getting his "recognition" he has gone more and more down the "pop" line. I personally feel he has abandoned hiphop by declining to rap on the new album.
An album full of singing isnt a hiphop album.
Using Kanyes album as an example of hiphop isnt a good example in my opinion.
Kanye isnt hiphop anymore. He has joined the heights of superstardom, where you can release pretty much any old shit and people will buy it because of the media hype surrounding him.
A great post highlighting the state of hiphop, but not so great in using Kanye as a "representative" of hiphop.
A lot of the people here at ill have known this to be the case for quite some time.
It only takes a bit of deduction and conversation on a hiphop forum before someone mentions the dumbing down of hiphop and the way samples are not used as much anymore.
A situation creating by greedy copyright holders(usually corporate) that pushed the price of samples through the roof. Thus impacting on the investment variable in the ROI equation. Obviously with a greater investment a greater return is required to break even. And with the sales of all music in decline, the big bucks to pay for things like sample clearance is diminishing.
A solution to the problem as I see, is that the composers, really have to step their games up.
The composition art in hiphop I feel although some artists have been doing this for some time ie The Roots,
the general hiphop creating community is still new to the art of composition and needs to develop it as an art to the point it isnt so easily recognisable as composed and it aint so simple(ie dumb sounding).
As for Kanye, he is no longer hiphop.
After bitching at awards ceremonies for not getting his "recognition" he has gone more and more down the "pop" line. I personally feel he has abandoned hiphop by declining to rap on the new album.
An album full of singing isnt a hiphop album.
Using Kanyes album as an example of hiphop isnt a good example in my opinion.
Kanye isnt hiphop anymore. He has joined the heights of superstardom, where you can release pretty much any old shit and people will buy it because of the media hype surrounding him.
A great post highlighting the state of hiphop, but not so great in using Kanye as a "representative" of hiphop.
Big Fish Audio
I don't think he did that, I think he did the complete opposite. He stated that Ye doesn't consider this a rap album, it's "pop art" or something like that. He states Ye's disdain for rap and hip hop music and how he's on some other shit, shit that'll eventually mention his name amongst the greatest "artist" of all time. Not hip hop artist but on some legendary shit like the stones, Jimi etc. Basically saying he's started a new genre that fits in no category...it's the DIVA in him...lmao
I'm sorry but Ye shouldnt get credit for trying something new like a rapper singing his whole album...but Phonte's album sounds better...Phont'e did it first. I like Ye and I can understand his disdain for hip hop but he is no singer. Everyone cant give up on making hip hop just to start singing through auto tune...thats dumb. Everybody trying to get they "Roger Troutman" on nowadays...for real I dont want to hear nobody else coming out with this kinda of record.
Though he sucks at it, Ye is not just trying to sing. The way he approaches making music in general has changed to hear him say it. And listening, it has. Yes there are some rappers out there auto tuning it but 99% of them are doing it over hip hop tracks or RnB tracks. Ye is doing it over popish, rockish, afican drummish shit. As a whole he is doing it diff't than the the other have imo. Still sounds like "hot shit on a shingle" but it is quite diff't overall!
God
Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
Ima repeat this. If ANY cat from this forum (or unknown cat, for that matter) came up to a rep and handed him the EXACT same version of "808's and Heartbreak" that Ye released - that cat would be laughed at and the demo submission would be considered "amateur" and tossed in the garbage.
The fucking INTERN listening to the submissions would laugh at it.
Again, people. Social proof has a lot to do with success in the business. Also, having the right people behind you marketing the album and supporting it, helps.
LDB, Ye does the "drama" shit because it garners attention. I personally believe he's acting like an overly coked up idiot, but it brings him attention and discussion on the internet about him - not other artists. It's actually pretty good PR. Any publicity is good publicity. I don't like it though.
Here's the converse: 50 Cent and Jimmy Iovine
Iovine had a great revenue stream coming in from The Game's first album by aligning The Game with G-Unit. Sure it was fake, but who gives a fuck. Dre was involved in the production of the songs and The Game's first album was a tremendous success. Lyrically, The Game was more talented than 50.
Then 50 gets jealous because The Game will outshine him. He tries to destroy The Game. What does that mean? He's destroying Jimmy Iovine's investment in The Game.
What happens afterwards? The promotion for 50's "Curtis" album was cut. The album wasn't pushed by Interscope guaranteeing him the win over Ye. 50 was right for blaming Iovine. But 50 fucked over Iovine by fucking with Iovine's investment in The Game.
That's how you make enemies and not having the right people behind you. I also blame 50 for the wack songs... but he tried to cut Dre from the production too... and it suffered. He fucked over two powerful people. Now 50 is better off promoting Vitamin Water, because his brand is screwed.
Ye did it right, 50 did it wrong (but is a whole lot richer because of his other revenue streams that are NOT music related.)
The fucking INTERN listening to the submissions would laugh at it.
Again, people. Social proof has a lot to do with success in the business. Also, having the right people behind you marketing the album and supporting it, helps.
LDB, Ye does the "drama" shit because it garners attention. I personally believe he's acting like an overly coked up idiot, but it brings him attention and discussion on the internet about him - not other artists. It's actually pretty good PR. Any publicity is good publicity. I don't like it though.
Here's the converse: 50 Cent and Jimmy Iovine
Iovine had a great revenue stream coming in from The Game's first album by aligning The Game with G-Unit. Sure it was fake, but who gives a fuck. Dre was involved in the production of the songs and The Game's first album was a tremendous success. Lyrically, The Game was more talented than 50.
Then 50 gets jealous because The Game will outshine him. He tries to destroy The Game. What does that mean? He's destroying Jimmy Iovine's investment in The Game.
What happens afterwards? The promotion for 50's "Curtis" album was cut. The album wasn't pushed by Interscope guaranteeing him the win over Ye. 50 was right for blaming Iovine. But 50 fucked over Iovine by fucking with Iovine's investment in The Game.
That's how you make enemies and not having the right people behind you. I also blame 50 for the wack songs... but he tried to cut Dre from the production too... and it suffered. He fucked over two powerful people. Now 50 is better off promoting Vitamin Water, because his brand is screwed.
Ye did it right, 50 did it wrong (but is a whole lot richer because of his other revenue streams that are NOT music related.)
slik da relic
RS Jedi
ill o.g.
Battle Points: 1
this is the reason i decided to take the route of disguisin the sample... it was cool to take a sample, and use it in its original form back in the days and its still cool now... but once the record companies and artists (some, very much washed up) decided to sue, which is very understandable, and started winning their cases, then u hafta evolve to the next level... these people dont care bout the roots of Hip Hop... all they care about is compensation and profit... the companies are takin more and more from artists and producers alike, which leads to a different type copycat syndrome we now have... synth based beats... im the type that HATES the fact that a company like "SONY" can just sit back and just go after u with their billion dollar budget, or just be the deciding factor of whether u'll be allowed to even USE a sample... and also, the artists that hate Hip Hop, but their careers have been resurrected bcuz of it... shit like that is what keeps me goin... it mite sound cold, but we all know they dont give a FUKK bout u... and besides, sometimes that snare/horn/guitar combination sounds perfect in a sample chop... ur not gonna recreate that shit 99% of the time... and most the time ur not even gonna try... thats Hip Hop.
da relic
Formant024
Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
20 years from now I'll hear people saying how Lil' Jon was a genius for using a Nord-lead synth and "borrowing" lines from techno and that those were the good ol' days.
try timboland's gratitude to DJ teebee's productions skills (his dnb breaks).
"puts on digable"...
try timboland's gratitude to DJ teebee's productions skills (his dnb breaks).
"puts on digable"...
