As producers, how do you guys feel about........

[o.Prime]

How do you guys feel about albums having a different producer for every track, or having an album of outsourced beats to represent a group or an artist that you really believe in?

In my opinion, I think this is what a lot of the older cats mean when they say they want to take things back to the "golden age" of hiphop.

I mean look at it, when someone comes with that "Ive got a little something for everyone on this album" shit, they usually end up spreading their sound too thin, to the point where the artist doesnt create any lasting impressions in the listeners mind. If you drop an album and the average listener only likes two or three tracks on your album, it will quickly become overplayed and end up in the backpages of your CD notebook.

Here are some fairly recent albums that illustrate my point of having an identifiable sound through the whole listen. (All have met with critcal acclaim).

Little Brother - The Listening
El-P - Fantastic Damage
Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein
Quasimoto - The Unseen
People Under The Stairs - O.S.T.

 

[bigdmakintrax]

I believe in variety for a listener and artists seem to be obsessed with getting all of these different tracks from 20 different producers to showcase sPittability and then show the producer a lil credit and thank you very much.....That's cool because it's free world, but a true artist not to knock the Black but I think Jay was showing love to all of the producers and handpicking beats that show Jayzee Skillz and he can do that, it's up to producers to try and take some control of their art and mold an MC, if you are Sort of Running your own Label then you gotta sign them to your label to lock them in....that's business I am gravitating away from the free world thought, I'm with the Primo- Gangstarr....Dre-Snoop.........it's up to the UP and coming New skool new Era Producers to take matters in their own hands and get you a good crew of MC's and you give them a vision, I think too many MC's want to control production....that's my spin.........A REAL producer has vision and will buy into what an unestablished Artist has but will generally have enuff vision to MOLD the end product......you can always sell a cat a beat and send them on their way.....that's beatmaking and let them put the idea to the track and maybe it blows......getting involved and taking creative control of EVERY Track, but at the same time not drowning out the artist's own creativity......So for Generic stuff with a lot of different styles no one can find out what point the Artist is projecting...and like you said you might buy a cd that an artist did with 20 different producers and only feel 2 of them.......I even see this phenomenon with singers where they using like 8 different producers.......this is almost like how free agency spoiled the NFL....just my 2 cents......when someone sees Jay or some ikon they instantly put themselve on that creative level and forget that working on a project involves blood, sweat and tears and hopefully a chemistry......that's the bottom line you must have chemistry between the artist and the producer so it comes across in the end product other than that you will have some generic sounding (SOMETHING)

 

[God]

Dear o.Prime and bigdmakintrax:

I think you are right in having a mentality that is concurrent to a rock producer's skill and vision of a product, or of an older Dr. Dre, RZA vantage point where the entire album is textured with their capabilities.

I think in hip-hop music it is money that is the primary issue. Another thing is the value of having a proven hitmaker make the beats. Remember, what I am going to tell you makes sense from a business standpoint but not an artistic one.

Let's look at it from a hypothetical situation:

My name is God, and I am an executive producer of an o.Prime's hiphop album at Columbia Records. I have o.Prime as my artist, and I have a set budget for production. Let's say I am a really good talker and I got a budget of 500.000 USD for the record (that's a lot, BTW).

Ok, I can't hire Dr. Dre because he has a per-track price of about 200.000 USD. I have people who know him and he said he'd drop the track price 50,000 USD to 150.000USD.

I have other people I can go to, maybe a Kanye West, or somebody else, but the price depends on the executive producer or artist's relationship with an actual musical producer.

So, if I have 500,000 and Dr. Dre wants to sell me the next "In Da Club" for 150.000 up front plus royalty, I would most likely buy it. But that leaves me minus 1/3 of my budget. I can get another surefire hit from Kanye West. Let's say I can get a track from him for 70.000, and I want a Timbaland production for 100.000 (let's pretend I know him.)

That leaves me with 200.000 left for the budget. The fact of the matter is that if I wanted Dr. Dre or Kanye West to produce an 11 song album, it would cost too much. Would Dr. Dre do the entire album for 1.65 million USD? I don't know, he has the leverage to reject such an offer. He knows the return would be worth more, and I would have to do a deal with Aftermath so he can get more points and a cut of the sales from a manufacturer's standpoint.

The thing is, I don't have 1.65 million for a proven producer. But I want his name and his hit to be the "seller" for the record.

Then I go to lower-tiered producers to "fill-up" the album. But I know I have at least 2-3 singles for the album from 3 premium producers. I have paid elite money for their best hits.

So, the producers themselves are kind of the problem with the change in the business of hip-hop deals regarding securing a producer for an album. That, coupled with an exec. producer's necessity to sell as many records as possible leaves the situation in the quagmire discussed above.

Plus, if I'm an executive producer, I usually "charge up" the budget and siphon off 100.000 for myself anyway as costs. Oops, I didn't say that! Don't do it! But it happens!

Anyway, there's a rundown, if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Sincerely,
God

 

[o.Prime]

Your perspective, which is very enlightening, seems to be geared more towards the short-term,major label career. It seems like this is an enevitable future for hip hop artists, to never have any creative control whatsover over their product anymore, but, lets go to lala land for a second and try to envision a plan for long term success that might actually work.

Lets say I had eight emcees that could spit fire like nobodys business. I felt real strongly about their skills and really believed that this was something that I felt people needed to hear. Now I, being the producer, have every kind of motivation I need to work as hard as it takes to produce the best tracks I possibly can. If all goes well, I could really make a name for myself by not just creating dope ass beats, but by creating, in my mind, a classic album from beginning to end that will be listened to for years and years to come. Of course, since we arent on no big time budget, we are going to have to do a lot of the work out of pocket. But we are all positive peoples that are all able to talk to people and network. In the end we have made enough contacts to be able to fill in whatever holes we had in getting our product out. People really like the album and it goes down as a bonifide hip hop classic. Now I, and whoever else was on the album have the leverage we need to be able to create the kind of music we want to.

Now im not saying that 36 chambers needs to be recreated or anything like that. Hell, I dont even know if the album was made even remotely like I described it.

But I think if more people thought this way about doing an album we would not have all these "HIPHOP is Dying" threads and discussions.

 

[Manji]

Alblums that have a different producer for each track makes my finger tired from hitting the skip button too much.

 

[SupaStar]

on a hip hop album, i think its better when an artiste and a producer work together as a team, incorporating ideas, and coming up with a theme for the album - I believe this gives the album a 'feel" a chance to relate to the album better, take for example dmx's first album it had a theme with the graveyard sounds and dog anthems - and the album i believe was mostly produced by swizz in his better days.......and what happen a classic was made. Its sad to hear that money is the issue here

 

[Haze47]

Hip hop isnt dead and it never will die (as long as producers like shadow claim to be hip hop) it is just moving from completely sample based, to incorporating pads, and synths and the like. Hip hop i feel is becoming space age, and that is its direction, that and RnPaedo style. Bring on the dirty synths, the age of Dance Darkness has now dawned on hip hop....

 

[Freakwncy]

Great point God!

 

[Formant024]

I've had a few jobs with artists that had spend their budgets already and after a good talk with their managers they concluded that they needed as much producers as possible. Now these were not the toprange artist but still with a majorlabel funding on a lowprofile, which probably has to do with the artists expected exploit. The first thing I said to my contact there was that it was plain nonsense to handle an solo album this way. An artist needs a format too, a producer that fits the needs in order to make the music and artist come together. That means dedication to such work that I dont believe you can achieve by having each track by a different producer. You need one good producer who does the job and makes the album a piece of harmony, such a producer should be able to contribute diversity during the works making it sound less of the same. I am not talking about quality here, simply arranging a score and doing the usual mastering by one producer/engineer/both.

In general, the concept of having a lot producers on a single album is only convenient in the top hierarchy to make it an appealing exploit because there's enough money to start with and those producers up there, like said before are already a hit simply by their name.

I currently have another great example coming in our studio that has been mentioned here, 3 artists/groups that are signing with majors that have bought tracks from Dre, Timbaland, Neptunes and a whole range of biggy producers which probably costed a small fortune resulting in having no funding in order to record the 3 albums/demos at a million buck studio facility, hence the reason why they come to us. But I already know who of the 3 will have the biggest lucrative potentials and that's the one with talent and wont need all of the producers mentioned before, just one. I haven't heard the tracks yet but the artist says it all, having a different producer for each track actualy doesnt say a damn thing, it's just causes a lot of buzz when the obtained tracks are mastered in different protocols so that you can hear the difference, but that's there problem. Remastering will cost them dearly hehe

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Yeah I agree with GOD and understand and that theory breaks down very well how different producers can show up on an album that even applied back in the day too....I would expect to see a few other producers in the Works Even WU Tang Did that it wouldn't have been completely RZA produced, 4th Disciple and a couple of other would be on the project but he had his hands in there with the type of mood or type of track picked along with the MC, nowadays a lot of the music on albums don't even match the artists flow and delivery or it just doesn't fit a particular style I understand the reasons why you might find 1 or two producers because of the budget scenario...... but the theory that God poses still doesn't apply to what is realistically happening out here or what fuels a lot of artists to go out and get all different tracks that in the first place might not even be polished as MC's or have some idea of shaping the album, I am not speaking major labels and how they run.....that's all very budget controlled, I am talking about the producers like are on this site, underground that are in the grind, including a lot of underground artists that don't have those same budget constraints theres lots of underground producers that won't hurt their pockets , some artists could easily work with one producer that isn't charging an arm and a leg but they still go seek out a lot of variety in the tracks they are using without first having a clue of a theme or flow of an album they just want tracks.......so instead of having a good relationship with a producer that wants to work with them they have to bounce around buying tracks all over the place and have an end product with all of these different songs that don't really have a consistent flava or theme to them.....

 

[o.Prime]

^ word BigD, thats what im sayin. Too many different ideas on one record, to me, ruins the final product, which IS the complete CD, not just the singles.

You know what I just realized though, there is someone to blame here.......The NOW series. You know, the cd thats probably on its 57th volume of all the top songs from whatever year its currently doing. That damn thing always shows up of the billboard charts every year, and I dont see that changing any time soon. Even with all the downloading going on this series is still going extremely strong.

That just goes to show you how many mindless lazy phucks there are out there. Too lazy to download the songs themselves, and too mindless to look any deeper than the billboard top 10.

 

[Guevara]

RELATiONSHiPS iN HiP HoP AiNT THE SAME WAY THEY USED To BE. NiGGAS iS ToO BUSY DiSSin EACH oTHER AND BURNiN BRiDGES THERE AinT No CoMRADERiE ANY MoRE.i ALWAYS FELT LiKE EVER WU-TANG SoLo JOiN CoULD HAVE BEEN A "WHAT iF THEY NEVER MET THE RZA" PRoJECT.WHAT NiGGAS oUT ARE DOiNG NoW ARE MAKiNG SURE THEY HAVE THE HoTTEST NiGGAS oN THEY SHiT AND AiNT PUTTiN THE FAiTH in THE LYRiCS.JoE BUDDENS ALBUM WAS HoT AND iT WAS BALANCED BETWEEN WHiTEBoY AND JUSTBLAZE.BUT LiKE GoD SAiD iTS ALL ABoUT DoLLARS NoW So WHo CARES HoW GoOD YoUR SHiT SoUND CUZ NiGGAS iS SELLiN MiLLiONS oFF oF CoRNY SHiT WHiLE DoPE SHiT CRAWLS To GoLD STATUS.BUT BACK oN THE SUBJECT, i THiNK THAT THERE ToO MUCH FoCUS oN THE PRoDUCERS NoW AND ARTiST ARENT SELLiNG THE ART BUT THE BACKGRoUND.CiTY

 

[Formant024]

Word, the mc comes before the producer.

 

[xkwest]

no doubt about that....... nas/on a lil jon beat.....
.
.
and the latest........ usher/on a lil jon beat.........
..
.
.
.what is this world coming to.

 

[Guevara]

i DoNT EVEN THiNK THAT iTS THE FACT THAT THEY ARE TURNiNG To THESE PEoPLE FoR PRoDUCTiON i JUST THiNK THAT THE SHiT AT TiMES SEEMS LiKE A FAD, LiKE SHiT GETS A LiTTLE ToO PoPULAR AND THEN iT GETS PLAYED oUT, i THiNK iF THE TiME PERiODS BETWEEN THESE SoNGS WERENT So ENCLoSED THEN iT WoULDNT BE AS BAD, BUT RECRD LABELS ARE RUSHiNG To PUSH SoMEBoDY LiKE USHER oN THAT NEW LiL JoN TRACK CUZ HES HoT NoW, PEoPLE ARE GOiN oUT AND MAKiN RECoRDS WiTH THE iNTENTiON oF iNSTANT RADiO APPRoVAL. iF PEoPLE JUST MADE MUSiC To MAKE GoOD MUSiC, HiP HoP WoULDNT BE SUFFERiNG THE WAY iTS SUFFERiNG NoW.CiTY

 

[bigdmakintrax]

Guevara you hit it right on man, remember when the Neptunes first hit and everyone had a Neptune track, same with Timbaland those were and still are heavy hitters that labels will easily shell out 100k for a track and the rest are fillers or no names......I just hate the fact that a lot of underground camps structure themselves like the big labels and do the exact same things when they really don't have a reason to, they go imitate what they see on tv and read in magazines and then go emulate it at every level instead of getting a good starting lineup, a good in house producer and a stage show.....that's a team to me and that's how great music is made......not the add and pour go pick a track here, and pick track there like you see these young kids doing today trying to get a hot single to make $$$$$$.......do any of you cats produce and have a starting lineup of artists? or some you might be developing?

 

[Guevara]

LiVE WiRE AND NoT To MENTiON THE WHoLE HiP HoP PRoJECT...THATS MY CAMP.CiTY

 

[Haterade]

I can totally agree with the opinions stated here- true, the names of the producers are selling tracks, namely because 1: THERE ARE NO GOOD EMCEES ANYMORE and 2: The producer's the one that makes the girls dance.

I mean, who really gives a fuck about a Joe Budden if he don't have a Timbaland/Lil Jon/Dr. Dre/Jazzy Phe/Neptunes beat? He's just another name in the crowd, yet anoter nigga who thinks he can rap. (And by the way, you know nobody listens to the words in the music, just the chorus... ) But when you add on one of the aforementioned producers to his project, it gives it instant credo due to what those guys have done in the past.

Having a lot of producers isn't always bad- look at Illmatic and Reasonable Doubt- both were done by an assembly team of beatsmiths, but we're all still rocking them to this day. I do really miss the one producer days of hiphop, especially the Common Sense/No I.D. team- where is my nigga Dion at??? I mean, did you guys hear the 3rd Common album? I thought it was A LOT better than Ressurection, and I like that album too. (But still, "Like Water For Chocolate" is his best album- Soulquarians fo' life...) Whatever happened to Diamond D also? I liked to peep OC's stuff, just because he had Diamond and Buckwild making bangers, with the occasional Primo track tossed up for good measure....

 

[maddogg]

I think the situation with diffrent producers on every track is no diffrent then anything else.Free agents in any sport for example you dont see anyone serving a whole career with one team anymore.They all want the most money.I also think this has sumpn to do with rappers puttn dj's on the back burner but i wont go into that.
Peace

 

[blaqcyde]

i think a bunch of different producers on an album if fine is the beats are consistent and have some sort of theme. but if the tracks pull you back and forth through different moods like jay-z's blueprint 2 then it doesn't make for a great album.

i think jay-z's blueprint 1 was perfect because there was a soulful theme to it.