Anyone automate EQ's here? Story and question...

[God]

An artist is working with a shitty producer. Friend's artist. I listened to the demo-cuts. They sucked. Basically, a good artist is being pawned off because there's no more money in the budget for (artist.)

Paid the engineer enough for 10 lap dances at a good club to get the artist's vox on a glyph.

Re-worked the vox and put my own backing production just to "fuck with" the song.

I've been automating the EQ to the point of insanity.

Vox:

1. Did most of this on the

- Syllable by syllable automation. Removed offending frequencies so I could keep pushing the vocal louder.

- Instead of using a de-esser, "hand-notched" offending esses out. Recorded my fader and EQ movements.

- Automated the EQ on consonants so they wouldn't sound as harsh. Scooped 'em out like a fucking bulldozer.

- Had the singer singing the hook do one whole day's worth of the same lines. Singer wanted a gun to commit suicide or a sedative because she was going insane.

- Blended and masked harmonies with comb-filtered eq's, doing syllable by syllable automation. Tried to push the vox higher without using compression... until...

... I multi-band comp'ed and smashed the shit out of her vox. Thought it sucked then ran it again through two compressors. Got pissed off and then called her back so she could whisper and I could layer "breath" into the vox.


- She was on the brink of insanity as I told her "You're not matching vocals right." Didn't want to tell her that I could always cheat with Vocalign.

- Sat down and wrote in her fucking pitch with ATR. Approx. 40 tracks.

- Whole process took a month.

Handed it to friend told him story. Said that I was:

1. Crazy for automating EQ's to the point of brutal death.
2. Wanted to pay for a therapist for me because he thought I was nuts.
3. Will use the track. Fucked over producer.

Anyone automate EQ's here? That's my question.

 

[thedreampolice]

yes I automate EQ's, but sometimes it seems I need a nice hardware EQ like the chandler units with the stuff is that bad. Why no Vocalign? It rocks. Also have you checked out the new melodyne music DNA stuff? AMAZING!

 

[Shonsteez]

My perspective is if you have to doctor the audio that much then the source files themselves are the problem, not your engineering. I dont see why you should have to do that much clean up, your better off having the artist give you better results by doing the vox over again and getting it right....and if possible upgrading your signal chain for better sonic integrity.

 

[StressWon]

My perspective is if you have to doctor the audio that much then the source files themselves are the problem, not your engineering. I dont see why you should have to do that much clean up, your better off having the artist give you better results by doing the vox over again and getting it right....and if possible upgrading your signal chain for better sonic integrity.

i was thinkin the same.

 

[Formant024]

was just gonna ask, whats in the vocal chain ?

 

[God]

i was thinkin the same.

So you DON'T believe in EQ automation?

 

[Chrono]

So you DON'T believe in EQ automation?

i made a quick search and could not find a concise definition of EQ Automation.. therefore i ask, what is this eq automation you speak of?

 

[LDB]

i made a quick search and could not find a concise definition of EQ Automation.. therefore i ask, what is this eq automation you speak of?

EQ automation is similar to riding a channels fader to raise or lower the volume during mixing and recording those movements. Instead of throwing a compressor on the channel to boost or cut volume you do it by hand.

EQ automation is similar except instead of volume your dealing with frequency. For example:

Drop some of the piano midrange during the vocals so they don't compete with the piano. Increase the upper mids a bit on the guitar solo so it "cuts" through the mix, then drop it back when the part reverts to rhythm guitar but you're recording these movements for playback.

It's an excellent way of getting a unique "one of a kind mix" that can't be easily duplicated and could very well give your song a signature sound.

It takes alot of work but the engineers that do it well are in a league of there own. When I was in school we had to automate every mix. We couldn't just throw a compressor or eq on a track and let those tools do the work for us. We could only use those tools after we understood how to achieve the same effect manually. It was actually alot more fun not to mention it looked real cool when playing the song back. Watching knobs and faders dance was a joy. That's actually the reason I bought my Yamaha Pro Mix 01.

As a live sound engineer if you can do this, running your sound through a "not so good" system is no problem. You know how to compensate manually.

 

[Kontents]

It's an excellent way of getting a unique "one of a kind mix" that can't be easily duplicated and could very well give your song a signature sound.

Yup, if you have the time then why not put the blood and sweat in the mix, but overall you should not have to do that much adjusting to the EQ throughout the song it should be a set in stone setting once applied to the audio.

 

[Relic]

I can't imagine going through all that when if I had the chance I would just have everybody do it right the first time.
I have done things like that where you go back and do these insane amounts of small adjustments, if I can avoid it I do.
Do I believe in EQ automation? I think I do not, not to say I would never use it , I'm just of the school of thought that if you get it right at first then you don't have to redo it. Im gonna have to say that it may have been less time and stress if you have called the originator of the vox back in to lay it right.
Of course if the only source material you had was an accp on a cd though and you believed in the song qand wanted to redo it , then yeah I agree with what you went through, but I sure wouldnt want to be doing that often ..lol.
Good story.

 

[Formant024]

riding/automating fades is one thing but this is fixing what's broken in the first place, its far from an ideal recording. I do believe in eq automation because a good eq is like a filter...and i like filters, but considering this is vocal material i think its a matter of different mic and pre, setting of the mic etc. If you're not re-recording the vocals then i can imagine fixing it this way but its always a trade for quality so indeed, why gimmick the shiznit out of it.

 

[Chrono]

hmm in protools it would not work because when a track is bouncing it is unadjustable. I guess the equivalent would be to preform these adjustments by processing the verses/hooks/ect with the desired eq before bouncing, but that would not be eq automation though might get the same feel. I do have hardware that i can eq automate into a track within pro tools, but not the final sequenced project from PT.

Are some of you using hardware sequencers for this?

 

[LDB]

hmm in protools it would not work because when a track is bouncing it is unadjustable. I guess the equivalent would be to preform these adjustments by processing the verses/hooks/ect with the desired eq before bouncing, but that would not be eq automation though might get the same feel. I do have hardware that i can eq automate into a track within pro tools, but not the final sequenced project from PT.

Are some of you using hardware sequencers for this?

I use to record my Yamaha's automation on a midi track of my MPC2000. When hit play on my MPC it would send the midi message thru a midi cable back to my mixer replaying the automation. It can definitely be done in some DAWs. Some record the movement of plugin knobs and faders.

My Yamaha Pro Mix 01 has built in EQ's and Compressors. Everything's Automatable thru midi into a DAW sequencer or a hardware sequencer.

 

[God]

LDB:

Thanks for defining to these folks what EQ automation is. It's good to see that there still are folks that are trained to do this.

Chrono:
The joy of PT is the fact that you can do this without having to sit at a Neve desk and replay/record automation, fuck up- do it again... In PT, you can have another Mac slaved to your main DAW and have it run automation while the main DAW is processing your other signal chains.

Opinion
Judging from the responses I received - you guys have to study some of the engineering mastery of late 70's and 80's rock. Listen to cuts from Def Leppard's Pyromania.

You don't get such mixes simply by running a couple bullshit plugins from your Waves Diamond bundle and calling it a day.

Sit there and listen to the vox - listen to the change in voice - sit in front of a couple good studio monitors and listen to how "space" is created in different signal ranges for different sounds coming in and out of the arrangements. Instead of riding the fader and pulling down a guitar in the mix when the lead vox come in... why not scoop out the eq and make frequency space?

It's a different way of thinking - a different way of mixing that more people should understand. A note though - this takes up a LOT of processing power on your computer. Especially if you multitrack a shitload of instruments.

I've seen it done more by English engineers than Americans. I do it - but I wonder why there's that divide between English EQ mastery and the American version of "just get the take right..." even though the take could be made better by applying some automation to the EQ.

 

[Chrono]

thanks for the information and direction everyone

::edit::

so without slaving another computer to preform this, couldn't i just process the desired frequencies in/out where i want them to be? This is not applying a filter to the entire track. This is opening the filter to process specific portions of the track. I understand it would not have the subtle feel of manual automation but it should get the job done.

i am about to check out pyromania soon to get a better feel of this.

 

[2GooD Productions]

There are times when eq automation is really necessary. Trying to get the best out of a peice of shit sample is one of them. I did a couple remixes with a small acoustic guitar artist a couple years ago, she couldnt supply just the vocal tracks so I had to take the left channel as the vocal was more dominant in that channel, and try to filter out the guitar which was in the background, I also had to chop the track sylable by sylable and rearrange to a set tempo as that was also variable. I gated out most of the guitar and then applied a similar technique to yours while equing the result, only after all the time I had put in chopping and re arranging the sample I decided I wouldnt go all out on the eq automation.
I think what seperates a great track from a good track is the attention to that kind of detail.
I normally do basic eq automation for changeups and try to kill certain instruments, I cant see me ever going that extreme. If I had more time maybe, I dunno.
Production these days is so much more than throwing some samples together,
producers are getting real creative and making full use of the tools available,
I have to try and learn some of it just to keep up with the competition.

 

[Relic]

LDB:

Thanks for defining to these folks what EQ automation is. It's good to see that there still are folks that are trained to do this.

Chrono:
The joy of PT is the fact that you can do this without having to sit at a Neve desk and replay/record automation, fuck up- do it again... In PT, you can have another Mac slaved to your main DAW and have it run automation while the main DAW is processing your other signal chains.

Opinion
Judging from the responses I received - you guys have to study some of the engineering mastery of late 70's and 80's rock. Listen to cuts from Def Leppard's Pyromania.

You don't get such mixes simply by running a couple bullshit plugins from your Waves Diamond bundle and calling it a day.

Sit there and listen to the vox - listen to the change in voice - sit in front of a couple good studio monitors and listen to how "space" is created in different signal ranges for different sounds coming in and out of the arrangements. Instead of riding the fader and pulling down a guitar in the mix when the lead vox come in... why not scoop out the eq and make frequency space?

It's a different way of thinking - a different way of mixing that more people should understand. A note though - this takes up a LOT of processing power on your computer. Especially if you multitrack a shitload of instruments.

I've seen it done more by English engineers than Americans. I do it - but I wonder why there's that divide between English EQ mastery and the American version of "just get the take right..." even though the take could be made better by applying some automation to the EQ.

Funny I was singin Pyromania to myself last night. lol
I'll try this eq automation, I was just taught (obviously not in a school though) that if you get the takes right to begin with you dont have a headache later. Obviously I'm not up for a grammy or anything ,lol, but we do ALOT of our stuff (artist wise) in no more than four takes and usually in one. Now me mixing it wrong or right afterwards shouldn't reflect on the artist so much I would hope.
You have had some really motivating posts lately.

 

[God]

You're lucky because I'm "saving" a track right now mixed by another asshole that is charging my buddy at a certain place way too much for the bullshit time he put into it. (Note to cats really keen on production - it's the only place where you can get a down payment of a house up front, and never use most of the money for the actual recording.)

I stepped in to "save" the artist's track, since a dick and some newbies were hired.

Chrono:
Say to yourself the following:

- The MOST POWERFUL "effect" I have in my signal chain is not compression, is not Auto-Tune, is not Renaissanceverb.

The most POWERFUL effect imaginable is my graphic equalizer.

Through automation I can adjust every single syllable - every possible fuckup that multiband compression can't even mask. That's the power of EQ, and people tend to overlook it for the "glitzier" FX. Pure bullshit.

Don't look for quick fixes. If you hone your ear and start noticing when and where to manipulate the multiple bands, then you're in a different league than every other wannabe producer or engineer that thinks highly of themselves, even though they suck shit.

I'll give you an example of what I'm working on right now a little later in the thread.

Relic:
You're doing it the way you're taught, that's cool... but here's an example of a take I'm working on right now. This is the phrase:

"I know your heart is holding me back."

I have worked on this phrase for the last hour. I have 15 vox lines grouped into one track. I have ATR running on each track. I cutoff at 100.

I have three harmonies. I have a 4th that is lower than the root melody, root melody, and then a counter melody that occurs in the 5th range above the melody.

Each vox layer has approx 15 tracks.

I won't go into the treatment PER track, because it is lengthy... but here's the basic example:

In most of the takes the singer at "I know your heart" has an offensive tone on "heart" while "I" in the phrase sounds nice and open. "Holding me back" has an offensive tone accentuation on "old" and "ack". The singer just sounds that way. I can take 50 takes of the singer, and it won't change it. I can tell the singer to "enunciate" - it wouldn't matter. Plus, I'm fixing shit not recording it.

So I sit down and record my automation on the EQ.

I have a general "sculpture" of the eq pass drawn in... but the fucking "heart" sounds like shit. I ran some multiband on the whole layer of vox to see if it fixes it... I even squashed the shit out of it with C1 on top of the multi-band comp to see if it works.

It still sounds like shit (albeit smoother and more diarrhea-like shit). So it's time to bring in the surgical knife.

"Heart" sounds offensive a its hot frequency of around 4330Hz. So I scoop that out. But if I leave it that way the "I" in "I know your heart" sounds harsh because the band opened up its filter and allowed offending frequencies at that syllable's hot point, which is around 2500Hz. If notch out these frequencies at the same time - everything sounds like shit.

So I record my movements - scooping out 2500 at "I" and then at 4330 for "heart". Repeat process for other offending frequencies.

Do this for 10 hours straight - suffer a TDM crash. Go at it again with different instruments in the song. Tell the producer he sucks, but give him full credit on the packaging. The mixer calls you up and thanks you for making his life easier because he knows you fixed it, he throws in a couple drum kick samples and makes it ready for the mastering engineer. Instead of taking 7 hours to mix your track, he takes 3, but still charges for the day. The producer can't even label his files and port them to the mixer's glyph correctly.

You receive no credit, but the ones who know... well they're the ones that count. You're just the "business guy" in front of everyone else.

Pure bullshit... I hate industry fuckers that don't even know how to man a fucking board, but they have opinions on everything (most A&Rs). They're business-degree fucks with no ear for music.

Anyway, that's a quick look at EQ automation.

EDIT:

The height of this type of attention to detail is:
1. Pyromania
2. Hysteria
3. Shania Twain's "Up!"

All the same producer. Mutt Lange. He was producer for acts that totaled 200,000,000 records in sales. You should look him up. He has something like 7 albums in the top 15-20 best selling albums of all time (sales.)

Attention to detail pays.

ALSO: Think of your mix as something that is fluid. There is constant movement. Levels are changed, EQs are moving, FX knobs are always being turned. It's never static.

It also makes for a better sounding mix, and listeners actually enjoy it (even though they don't know what it is they're enjoying.)

It's the next step in your evolution as producer/engineer. Mixes are NOT static.

 

[Vice]

You're lucky because I'm "saving" a track right now mixed by another asshole that is charging my buddy at a certain place way too much for the bullshit time he put into it. (Note to cats really keen on production - it's the only place where you can get a down payment of a house up front, and never use most of the money for the actual recording.)

I stepped in to "save" the artist's track, since a dick and some newbies were hired.

Chrono:
Say to yourself the following:

- The MOST POWERFUL "effect" I have in my signal chain is not compression, is not Auto-Tune, is not Renaissanceverb.

The most POWERFUL effect imaginable is my graphic equalizer.

Through automation I can adjust every single syllable - every possible fuckup that multiband compression can't even mask. That's the power of EQ, and people tend to overlook it for the "glitzier" FX. Pure bullshit.

Don't look for quick fixes. If you hone your ear and start noticing when and where to manipulate the multiple bands, then you're in a different league than every other wannabe producer or engineer that thinks highly of themselves, even though they suck shit.

I'll give you an example of what I'm working on right now a little later in the thread.

Relic:
You're doing it the way you're taught, that's cool... but here's an example of a take I'm working on right now. This is the phrase:

"I know your heart is holding me back."

I have worked on this phrase for the last hour. I have 15 vox lines grouped into one track. I have ATR running on each track. I cutoff at 100.

I have three harmonies. I have a 4th that is lower than the root melody, root melody, and then a counter melody that occurs in the 5th range above the melody.

Each vox layer has approx 15 tracks.

I won't go into the treatment PER track, because it is lengthy... but here's the basic example:

In most of the takes the singer at "I know your heart" has an offensive tone on "heart" while "I" in the phrase sounds nice and open. "Holding me back" has an offensive tone accentuation on "old" and "ack". The singer just sounds that way. I can take 50 takes of the singer, and it won't change it. I can tell the singer to "enunciate" - it wouldn't matter. Plus, I'm fixing shit not recording it.

So I sit down and record my automation on the EQ.

I have a general "sculpture" of the eq pass drawn in... but the fucking "heart" sounds like shit. I ran some multiband on the whole layer of vox to see if it fixes it... I even squashed the shit out of it with C1 on top of the multi-band comp to see if it works.

It still sounds like shit (albeit smoother and more diarrhea-like shit). So it's time to bring in the surgical knife.

"Heart" sounds offensive a its hot frequency of around 4330Hz. So I scoop that out. But if I leave it that way the "I" in "I know your heart" sounds harsh because the band opened up its filter and allowed offending frequencies at that syllable's hot point, which is around 2500Hz. If notch out these frequencies at the same time - everything sounds like shit.

So I record my movements - scooping out 2500 at "I" and then at 4330 for "heart". Repeat process for other offending frequencies.

Do this for 10 hours straight - suffer a TDM crash. Go at it again with different instruments in the song. Tell the producer he sucks, but give him full credit on the packaging. The mixer calls you up and thanks you for making his life easier because he knows you fixed it, he throws in a couple drum kick samples and makes it ready for the mastering engineer. Instead of taking 7 hours to mix your track, he takes 3, but still charges for the day. The producer can't even label his files and port them to the mixer's glyph correctly.

You receive no credit, but the ones who know... well they're the ones that count. You're just the "business guy" in front of everyone else.

Pure bullshit... I hate industry fuckers that don't even know how to man a fucking board, but they have opinions on everything (most A&Rs). They're business-degree fucks with no ear for music.

Anyway, that's a quick look at EQ automation.

EDIT:

The height of this type of attention to detail is:
1. Pyromania
2. Hysteria
3. Shania Twain's "Up!"

All the same producer. Mutt Lange. He was producer for acts that totaled 200,000,000 records in sales. You should look him up. He has something like 7 albums in the top 15-20 best selling albums of all time (sales.)

Attention to detail pays.

ALSO: Think of your mix as something that is fluid. There is constant movement. Levels are changed, EQs are moving, FX knobs are always being turned. It's never static.

It also makes for a better sounding mix, and listeners actually enjoy it (even though they don't know what it is they're enjoying.)

It's the next step in your evolution as producer/engineer. Mixes are NOT static.

dayum.... I honestly have not even scratched the surface of EQ.....

 

[skidflow]

dayum.... I honestly have not even scratched the surface of eq.....

yeah i'm in the same boat chief...but i've jotted a lil memo about this to research later. I've read alot about eq, but for me its a constant learning experience i tell ya.