Analog Vs Digital

I have a custom built iMac with an upgraded sound card that there's only 6 of :) I run Mac everything including using Logic (for most things) it's sort of hard to pinpoint exactly where the sound quality is actually coming from.

I don't have anything super fancy it just a is a M-audio Fast Track Ultra 8r.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Its the thing that kinda throws me off the most about the reni, if you settle for the internal i/o fine, but if you have better converters than it doesnt make sense to buy the reni (alphalink doesnt like aggregated devices).

As for its workflow analog/digital, there's been so many ways to go around the mpc work method. MPC standalone, mpc + computer(multimode), controller + computer, controller + sampler... in the end the only thing most couldnt replace was note repeat lol. You'd have to ask yourself how you couldve gained the same workflow etc, whats there that made your purchase beneficial. I mean, if i was in your shoes id be all over the flex mode chop shop into exs24 and bang away on a midi controller. I'd probably get the same results as the mpc reni except im using the better converters and i have a full audio editor.
 
Honestly if I had had more info when I got the Reni I would have got a different model like the 2500 just cuz of its kinks. I come from a music theory/band geek background and usually use my keyboard for most things...I have ridiculously long nails tho lol and it can be hard to use my computer or keyboard sometimes. I feel like a little kid in a candy store on the MPC tho...I can bang away and hand play crazy patterns easily and it's ALWAYS fun...and minimal broken nail damage haha for me the value in my MPC is its way of inspiring me...that's my little homie :)
 

Greg Savage

Ehh Fuck you
ill o.g.
If you ever run into some extra money. Try a Meek, mindprint or grace. Just for processing. The sound will be game changing compared to that maudio unit.

There are better ones, but those have a great sound at a very reasonable price range. There all over ebay too in great condition.

Which Maudio card are you using? the 1010 was the last thing i paid attention to. I got for 300 over 10 years ago now it's priced at 500 and 600. Have you tried their profire?
 
As luck would have it I just purchased an actual studio space (no more home covered in studio equipment yay!) and I have a TON of new equipment being added including a custom built soundboard. While I have the cash to do it I'd like to set this new space up with everything I could ever possibly need. Any suggestions for equipment that would be ideal for my particular setup would be welcome and appreciated. I get so many conflicting STRONG opinions its hard to know which way to roll.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised with my strip, and actually any if my M-Audio equipment...it's not crazy expensive but holds its own against many more expensive counterparts. I haven't tried the ProFire.

thats an analoge issue i cant help you with lol
I would hope not. Lol
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
yes.. it does mean its the best yet best also implies it being applied properly too.

How big is the studiospace -> determine what size nearfields -> buy nearfields that serve you the next decade.

Are you going to use a lot of hardware (synth, outboard) -> count how many in and outputs you would need - > buy réally nice converters (not M-audio).

Is the room acoustally treated ? if not, look for a nice designer.

Usefull stuff
-2x Avid artist daw controller
-active avantones (or just one)
-monitor controller (avocet is fancy, dangerous monitor st is perfectly fine too)

what do you mean by custom soundboard ?
 
Maybe that theory only applies to things that aren't sound equipment...cuz I know that my $1,500 Louboutins are piece of shit heels lol

The new space I had gutted and completely rebuilt everything from the tiles to the bathtub. Ironically it's actually an old whorehouse from the 1920s lol and right on the beach. It's a one bedroom space so the master is being converted into the studio itself, the walk in closet into a booth and the living room into a lounge/office and I'm having it professionally sound proofed cuz it's not my area of expertise.

Any specific models?

What I meant was the the sound board (mixing console) was custom built for the grateful dead (it runs analog) and was there's for a long time. The company that builds them (Gamble) r close family friends and actually donated it. Dave Matthews just bought a similar one from them for 6 figures....so I'm lucky to say the least. A lot of my new equipment will be donated from them as their studio is overflowing w gear. Leaving more $ for me to buy other things yay!
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Maybe that theory only applies to things that aren't sound equipment...cuz I know that my $1,500 Louboutins are piece of shit heels lol

you are correct, for gear you pay for quality and sometimes the quality is subjective and marginal in comparing 2 units in the same price range but from 2k a unit an up you'll notice the difference is huge.

The new space I had gutted and completely rebuilt everything from the tiles to the bathtub. Ironically it's actually an old whorehouse from the 1920s lol and right on the beach. It's a one bedroom space so the master is being converted into the studio itself, the walk in closet into a booth and the living room into a lounge/office and I'm having it professionally sound proofed cuz it's not my area of expertise.

sounds awesome, who is doing acoustics ?

Any specific models?

Hard to say, i cant tell how many and what kind of pieces of gear youre still getting from Matthews. If money wasnt an issue hmm.

monitoring;

Barefoot MM12 minimains, ive doubted between mm27's and several other midfield in that range and i wennt with ME geithan rl901k. MM12 are out of my budget but damn, this makes a studio attract customers just to hear them, its to be said that for mastering there are probably better options but for the type of music you do its really good enough (more then). In fact, you'll see these or the mm27 in a lot of producer/mixing rooms because of the detail and power, you're definitly not going to need subs with these.

Cool thing about the MM12 is that it resolves the need for B speakers. A lot of studios will have avantones or ns-10's to see how things translate to "hi-fi", the mm12 has a switch that will make them sound hifi.

With this you dont need a monitoring controller that supports 3speakers, you wont need additional reference nearfields meaning you have less objects between you and the speakers which is always a good thing.

monitoring DAC

Fred forssell MDAC-2a, these arent the most expensive DA but they are very clean and transparent. Theyre still 5x your m-audio, but easily will sound 10x better. This converter is just to feed the a signal to your monitors.

ad/da

Well this is depending on how many pieces of outboard gear you'll be getting. Along with this you'd need a patchbay or 2, or 3...(mosses & mitchell are nice). And also the gamble console ofc, will decide how many i/o you'll need. If you have dedicated i/o fixed you'll have flexibility and fast workflow but i wonder how much of the console you're actually going to use. If youre not going to record a band and just stick with producing the way you're doing now i wouldnt even use the console. Its just in the way between the source and recording input (single wire approach).

However, you still want to be using outboard gear and probably some instruments straight into logic.
Weve switched to SSL alphalink ax and swopped that one for sx. These units are relativly cheap for what they offer, you get 24 in and out + 16 adat (ax) or 12 aes/ebu (sx). These connect through the madi protocol and you can add several units ofc to increase the channel count. They sound very good, neutral imo and so far give the smallest latency in osx (0.9ms at most). Blacklion does upgrades for alphalink, they replace the components in the analog path with better ones though we havent fellt the need for it.

Madi gear doesnt connect through usb, you'd need a madi controller, either by rme or ssl. There are usb-to-madi solutions but so far only the new RME madiface xt offers wordclock and a usefull 3x madi i/o (64 channels each).
The other solutions require you to have pci/e slots in your mac which the imac doesnt have, you'd need a mac pro but i wouldnt buy into a mac pro yet untill they (finaly) release a new one that belongs in 2013 and not 2010...

Speaking of which, you probably dont want an imac between you and nearfields (the least amount of objects between you and the speakers). Perhaps you can make do with a cheap mac pro right now and big screen behind/between the nearfields.

loop ad/da;

this is if you have analog outboard mastering chain, if you get any of that but probably not. Fred Forssell MADA-2a, 2 channel converter with spdif, aes/ebu and analog i/o ofc, same applies as mdac-2a. Bang for a "buck".

clock;

If it just a computer and one ad/da interface you wouldnt need a clock, but what ive put down here are all digital pieces of gear that need to connect to one clock distribution system. The ssl alpha link, forssell mdac-2a and possibly some of the outboard gear you'll get need to slave (whats a whorehouse without slaves..) to this clock. I'd go with Grimm Audio CC1, one of the best sounding house clocks right now and gives 16 outputs which is more than plenty.


Alternatives/solutions;

SSL Matrix, digital inline console with 16 analog inputs (additional input per channel for inline function). This unit can also connect 16 pieces of outboard gear that connect to a router (32x16x16). This way you can digitaly chain your outboard gear and save it which removes the need for a patchbays. Its also a daw controller with flying faders so you wont need avid artist controllers though such replacements arent the money compared to the pricetag on the SSL matrix but it does offer a lot of convenience which makes your workflow a lot more fun but it can be achieved otherwise for a lot less money (this just looks better if 16 channels is enough). Obviously, you wouldnt need the gamble console.


What I meant was the the sound board (mixing console) was custom built for the grateful dead (it runs analog) and was there's for a long time. The company that builds them (Gamble) r close family friends and actually donated it. Dave Matthews just bought a similar one from them for 6 figures....so I'm lucky to say the least. A lot of my new equipment will be donated from them as their studio is overflowing w gear. Leaving more $ for me to buy other things yay!
[/quote]

Like i said earlier, you have decide what it is you want to be doing, if you're not going to record bands i doubt you really be needing this. If you want to rent out the place for recording than it would be a good thing but you'd also need more than one boot to facilitate such a recording session. Second, gamble makes FOH consoles for the most afaik which are used for concerts/venues, for recording/mixing you'd really want an in-line console where you can switch inputs between recording sources and daw channels.

anyway, sounds exciting :) most things i mention here are based on transparent gear with minor tone in them. If you want a more beefy sound from converters you could switch ssl alpha link with burl converters which are a bit more expensive but generaly speaking you dont want that all the time unless you predominantly work with rockbands. Even then i believe that the beefy sound should come from the recording and not the ad/da.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Yeah its compatible though id recommend a mac pro over an imac. If you want to stick to the imac then you'd need to resort to an rme madiface xt for the usb compatibility. But like i said, imac could be in the way between you in the sweetspot and the monitors.
 

God

Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
Honestly, Greg Savage nailed it. A lot of the issue is a moot point, since it's essentially all about frequencies combined with the knowledge and training you have to understand the scientific aspect of sound design and why things sound the way they are. If you know this, you can manipulate the sound to do whatever you want.

To be brutally honest, I've seen a worldwide top ten hit made completely on a MacBook. The songwriter/producer rented a studio recorded the artist into his Mac. He then emailed the tracks to a mixing engineer who made it sound tight. Then it was send to the mastering engineer. Boom... done.

The dude does all his sound creation in the Mac, totally dependent on soft synths. He could honestly give zero crap about if it is digital or analog. He purposely restricts himself to using the Mac because he thinks the restrictions offer creativity and make it easier for him to finish songs, since he doesn't sit and tinker forever with crap.

Most of the record buying public listens to this crap in their cars or in a club. Hardly the place for audio purists to listen to music.

If your songwriting is tight and your production is up to par, that's what counts. The whole analog and digital thing-- just seems passe at this point.

Also, did anyone address -- if you're doing a song for an album for instance -- that you're precious sounds will be compressed into oblivion anyway, changing the dynamics of the tune because some A&R wants the song to be louder?

Just sayin'.
 
Also, did anyone address -- if you're doing a song for an album for instance -- that you're precious sounds will be compressed into oblivion anyway, changing the dynamics of the tune because some A&R wants the song to be louder?

Just sayin'.
Haha, a realisation I made a few months ago.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
Yes, but mastering compression should only change the overal dynamics of the song itself. If it becomes that messed up during brickwall limiting than the mastering wasnt correct either. This is where often the bedroom mastering is to be blamed, simply overdoing it so it will sound good with those room conditions (compensating). Those tracks never had a proper reference how it would translate irl.
 

God

Creator of the Universe
ill o.g.
What I'm trying to say is that most of the analog v. digital "debate" is mostly fluff. A mass percentage of the general population we make music for listen to it on garbage speakers, TV, crappy iPod earbuds or on a computer.

Their ears are not trained to distinguish the nuances of what people believe is "analog v. digital." Also, if you A/B "analog v. digital" sounds, most people, even with trained ears, won't be able to distinguish the difference.

Also, yes-- mastering and the loudness wars usually do change the dynamics of the overall mix, which in turn changes the nuances of the sound. Just take a listen to the final masters of "Death Magnetic" by Metallica versus their original unmastered mixes and listen to how the overcompression on the tracks makes my ears want to bleed more than a hemophiliac on blood thinners with and a bad case of hemorrhoids.

The mastering engineer is usually forced to "crush" the mix just like an overweight Jessica Simpson eating big macs would likely crush a chihuahua she accidentally sat on.

In a perfect world, we would be very cognizant of dynamics and giving ample headroom to certain frequencies. It's just not the case anymore when I have to produce a song based on the tendencies of the mixing engineer and what the mastering engineer will do. The edict comes from the executive producer of the album which is "make that shit as loud as possible."

Just my take. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm basically saying the system is fucked up. If you want to master the 80's way and make sure that everything is done properly and the dynamics are correct, that's totally possible. It's just not going to sound as "good" as a rap song that's smashed into oblivion because the dumbass buying public think that louder = better.
 

Formant024

Digital Smokerings
ill o.g.
^^ yeah there's nothing to argue about that. I know it has nothing to do with mastering ethics and you can blame the treshold on delivering technology at home studios, the labels who have been making it a dumb standard and hifi oem's for using weak chip amps. Regardless, its a byproduct of future technology and no one was hating phil spector back in the days either.

But,

Fact is, the solution is easy, people need to turn up the volume or buy proper setups, instead theyre trying make a 15w amp sound like 500w through mastering because that way productions will have delivery.
Eitherway, i disregard the "it doesnt matter" concensus, i know the ethics arent the criteria but prefer to stick with craft side of it all because just squashing things to hell really isnt a challenge anyway.

Personaly im dealing with a different response here in europe, we gain props for the sticking with the craft side of this business resulting in better clientel. We can still make things loud, just not at the cost of a good mix.
Then again, i realise i dont look at it from a producer/beat maker's perspective, i believe there shouldnt be any difference in the genre between that and a mix engineer who can gain the experience to do mastering due to the new technology in the digital realm (within a certain limit). That experience will eventualy bring you to a level which will point out that more than often, that analogue cant be beaten for the best results but comes with a pricetag.
 

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