Adventures in kick drum EQ'ing.

[God]

Apparently I've been called into the studio more than I want to do these days.

I noticed people around this forum are not thinking LATERALLY. Apply this to the way you stack and EQ your kick drums for hip hop. Create room for your bass line, etc.

Here's an example:

I was sitting in front of the desk with an AE listening to a fucking mix of a AOR rock band (think Saving Abel, 3 Doors Down, radio-friendly shit... that stuff). The AE mixed it.

First question - why did the AE mix it? Why wasn't it sent to a REAL mixer? (Jesus christ, these fucking producers are penny-pinching everything.)

The kicks sounded like shit - too heavy, too metally (great for Slipknot, not for fingerbanging housewife-rock). Hi-pass @30Hz, boosted at 55HZ, scooped out the midranges with some "whack" added at around 2kHz. I think he cutoff the hi's @ 9kHz or something.

The subs were killing me. I felt like vomiting - like the subs were resonating with the resonance of my body and I was going to spontaneously combust.

Here's an example of my conversation with the AE:

AE: "(God) the kicks fucking rule, brah."
Me: "Right, if this was Pantera. I would make be making housecallls for your grammy."
AE: "Brah, this IS rock, dude. The rhythm section sounds tight as fuck - just like (producer) wanted it."
Me: (I go off on shit about producer, name-drop mixers he could have used. Told AE he "did a great job... just not what we're looking for" line.)

Then I say:
Me: "(AE), this isn't rock. This is pop that pretends it's rock because they sing love songs with heavily distorted guitars. The lyrics could be swapped with a Jonas Bros. song and no one would know the difference except for the "modern rock" production".

AE bullshits and I restate that THE KICK DRUM FUCKING ANNOYS ME. GIRLS LIKE BASS, BUT THIS KICK DRUM WILL MAKE housewives and teenage girls WANT TO VOMIT.

I don't say it that way. But let's look at what we ended up doing with the kick:

KICK DRUM EQ and STACKING:

The original kick drum recording sounds workable. It's solid and I have enough room with the frequency bands (because they didn't print the fucking original FX) to fuck with it. The AE's mix of it sucked though.

So, I make three tracks for the kick. All are the same kick drums.

AE: WTF? Why are you copying the same track three... oh... okay.


One track of kicks I cutoff at 40Hz and boost at 90Hz. I cutoff the his between 230-280.

This is my "lo-kick" EQ track of the kick drum.

With the second track I hi-pass at 260Hz, boost at 1.5-2kHz with a small Q (2) and then lo-pass at around 3kHz.

Whew. This is my midrange for the same kick.

The third track I hi-pass at 2500 and scoop out between 3-5 kHz. I don't cutoff the hi's.

So there I have THREE tracks representing the different EQ range of the same kick drum recording. I group 'em all mono to a bus and apply compression on the overall kick track to get proper in your face - yet vagina friendly - punch.

Now I can mix each EQ range of the kick differently. I can automate the faders when the bass is too pronounced, or whenever I need more mid and hi in the kick track.

I took a kick drum and instead of letting it annoy me and feel restrained by my options, I made the kick my bitch and separated that kick into different eq ranges so I could GET WHAT I WANT from the track.

Try using this lateral approach to mixing drums. Break 'em down. You can do this with any instrument, but this is very effective albeit "time consuming."

I got results this way. Try it your way... but if you WANT big subs... remember that you can apply a big 808 bass, but you'll need to layer that with a kick that has definition that "cuts" through the mix too...

Kanye West sometimes fucks up on stuff like this... the drums on "Stronger" could have been more pronounced. If I remember correctly, he went to Timbo's studio to assess this "problem" (fucking idiot.)

DO NOT BE STUPID AND CONFUSE THIS WITH STACKING DRUM SAMPLES TO GET A "SOUND." This is taking one sound, and splitting that sound into different tracks representing different frequency ranges of the SAME sound.

Cheers.

 

[Relic]

LOL @ the title of the thread.

Interesting info, I have had at times that problem where I liked the kik individually apart from the sub, but when those two came together it was mud and made my ears tired, even when I tried diff eqing on the kik. Because its so simple it never occured to me to stack the kik and eq up diff parts, although lately I have been trying a variation of this technique just hadnt done it in the mud yet.
Thanks again!

 

[Vice]

(great for Slipknot, not for fingerbanging housewife-rock). Hi-pass @30Hz, boosted at 55HZ, scooped out the midranges with some "whack" added at around 2kHz. I think he cutoff the hi's @ 9kHz or something.

LOL... fingerbanging housewife rock.... this is some great info. thanks yet again.

 

[The Arkitekt]

lmao @ "fingerbanging housewife rock" & "vagina friendly"

Nice drop

 

[spartan265]

awesome.

 

[Ominous]

My ears are not tuned enough for this to help me.

So you took a kick that had a range of frequency. Then you sent it to 3 tracks to focus and boost the low end, the mid and the high end of the kick sound to make it punch through the overall song more.

So was there a huge difference in the final kick sound? Noticeable by an average listener?

 

[God]

My ears are not tuned enough for this to help me.

So you took a kick that had a range of frequency. Then you sent it to 3 tracks to focus and boost the low end, the mid and the high end of the kick sound to make it punch through the overall song more.

So was there a huge difference in the final kick sound? Noticeable by an average listener?

Yes, very noticeable. I'm curious as to why you wouldn't think heavy volume manipulation of an sample/instrument's EQ band wouldn't be noticeable.

I really suggest you try it.

This is a method often used by mixing engineers like Bob Clearmountain.

 

[Shonsteez]

The Jonas Brothers plug and the Vagina Friendly kick had me crackin up man, good post indeed.

 

[Ominous]

Yes, very noticeable. I'm curious as to why you wouldn't think heavy volume manipulation of an sample/instrument's EQ band wouldn't be noticeable.[/URL].

That's just my lack of experience showing.

I can notice certain improvements. When I did my first remix, I let my buddy hear it, who is an aspiring engineer. He got mad at me for not using the copy of Waves Platinum Plugins he gave me. This was way back on a G3 mac using OS8 so it was easy to copy and distribute applications like Waves.

He launched the plugins and added a compressor and limiter and I immediately noticed how much better the overall track sounded.

So far I have watched 2 different mixing and engineering tutorials both an hour long showing the whole process. I bought them from MacProVideo.com

The vids are great but I guess I just don't have a tuned enough ear to appreciate the differences in sound quality. To me, mixing is like fashion. Some people will look at Kanye and think he has a great fashion style. But I don't like it. Or taste in food is another example. Somebody will say "this is too salty" and I will think it is just fine.

Instead of using analogies, I'll give a real example.

Wu Tang - 36 Chambers

When you hear the engineering and recording on that album, to many it is horrible. But I just accepted it's grimeyness and look at it like it is just a characteristic of the album.

The main thing I am usually trying to avoid is distortion in the great chase of loudness.

The last few remixes I have done, I have heard some serious distortion in the heavy bass and kicks. I get frustrated with the mixing process because I have a hard enough time coming up with a decent composition and worrying about the sound quality just makes everything else that much harder for me.

 

[Shonsteez]

I think what carried 36 Chambers though was the fact that that album dropped just at the right time and the album was off the chain. The content was the real winner, not the sound quality.
I still love that album but sonically its not that great. You overlook this IMO when the album is that good though. This is how I felt when i bought Atmospheres first album, "Overcast", it wasnt as gritty as 36 Chambers but it still had a very lofi amateur polish to it, but the album was so dope to me I just didn't care.

 

[Ominous]

but the album was so dope to me I just didn't care.

That's exactly what I do. And it is killing me because I am seriously lacking in the sound quality arena. I care more about overall dopeness than I do sonic quality. So when I am making music, I tend to only focus on the composition and almost completely neglect the sonic quality.

I mean... so many of my favorite songs have the worst sound quality.

Like Jeru's "Come Clean." That track is so gross because of the samples Primo used. But that was fine. It worked. Same thing with Biggie's "Unbelievable". The song didn't have a whole lot of punch to it but it didn't bother me because I just liked the overall feel of the song.

But even Primo is quoted as saying, some of the best beats get killed in the mix down and they are then perceived as bad beats.

You see that happen here at iLLmuzik. Like in the last Beat This Competition. You could here a huge difference in the sonic quality and mix of DJ Excellence's beat as compared to everyone else's. And maybe that was part of what gave him the edge in the comp.


AS far as what GOD is talking about regarding the technique. I am not questioning the methods of the Jedi's who have developed the technique's that work regarding sound engineering. I just get annoyed at the idea that you have to go through such lengths to get a sound and it almost sounds like doubling work. When it comes to workflow, I just want to pick up the pencil and draw the picture. I don't want to have to make my own pencils and grind my own trees to make my own pulp and paper.


I dunno. Call me lazy man.

 

[classic]

good looks , im gonna try this tonight!!!

 

[Sanova]

awesome post

 

[Shonsteez]

But even Primo is quoted as saying, some of the best beats get killed in the mix down and they are then perceived as bad beats.

Its true man, hell ive even done this to my own joints.
Its a mixing, editing decision ultimately, and you gotta learn when and where to employ certain techniques and effects and that shit can be hard sometimes...
Mixing can be easy as fuck or like a rubix cube. Seems like it changes on a song to song basis. Thats the challenge I guess. I mean, theres a shit load of variables to what can contribute to a good mix too like good or bad source files/recordings in the first place, good/bad performance, the preamps used, mic's, etc....but yeah, it can be hard to hold your self back from over compressing the shit out of your track or using an unneeded effect just cuz its there in your arsonal.

I just get annoyed at the idea that you have to go through such lengths to get a sound and it almost sounds like doubling work. When it comes to workflow, I just want to pick up the pencil and draw the picture. I don't want to have to make my own pencils and grind my own trees to make my own pulp and paper.

Word, i agree. Most of situations like this are just clean-up tho and thats why. Your trying to FIX something that someone else did poorly in the recording chain.

 

[Sanova]

^ yea, the process is long as fuck sometimes. Sometimes when I feel like making a beat/song and i get discouraged by the tediousness of the process, I'll do "cleanup work" and perform various tasks that will make the creating and mixing process and easier and smoother workflow for when i actually get down to it.

 

[God]

I just get annoyed at the idea that you have to go through such lengths to get a sound and it almost sounds like doubling work. When it comes to workflow, I just want to pick up the pencil and draw the picture. I don't want to have to make my own pencils and grind my own trees to make my own pulp and paper.

I dunno. Call me lazy man.

The Jedi stuff is meant to clean up a lazy producer's recordings

That's why some of these cats make between $3,000-$10,000 a track plus album points to strictly MIX an album.

 

[Shonsteez]

The Jedi stuff is meant to clean up a lazy producer's recordings

That's why some of these cats make between $3,000-$10,000 a track plus album points to strictly MIX an album.

Thats game tho, i would def like to do that as a real job.

 

[God]

Thats game tho, i would def like to do that as a real job.

My opinion is it's like a clique. No matter how good of a mixer you are, if you don't get with the "in" crowd, you may not make that type of money.

This is where politics trumps the delusion of "if I'm good enough and I'm smart enough, doggone it - I'm going to get that job." This bullshit happens everywhere, it's not different just because you want it to be.

That doesn't mean you have to stop educating yourself and trying, though.

Those are a select few mixers that make that type of money, man. Kind of like how everyone wants to get a record contract but it's equivalent to winning the lottery.

Here are some examples:

Andy Wallace
Chris Lord-Alge
Bob Clearmountain

Bob Ludwig also makes a shitload of cash.

Good luck though.