Writing Pools: Response to JMalice

[God]

INFO FOR MODERATORS: I am posting this because of its informative nature on this post, so as many people as possible will be able to access what I am going to say. For that, I ask you bear with me regarding the duplicate response.
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The Post: Writing Pools

What you are going to read below is a response to J-Malice's post regarding "writing pools" and manipulation regarding creating an artist, and writing pools as a source for a "puppet" artist/rapper.

J-Malice's Original Post: https://www.illmuzik.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=38807#post38807

--- MY RESPONSE REGARDING WRITING POOLS ---

Writing pools are effective ways of lowering exposure for a loss on an investment in the record industry. If I am a record company, I do not want to have all my eggs in one basket, or one artist thinking they can write “hits.” A pool harvests talent and when a member of the pool is not pulling their weight, they are supposed to get let go (in theory- I’ll get back to that later.)

Writing pools are not uncommon in producer based music, like pop and R&B. In fact, in the old days, during the 50’s, record companies, like Capitol, would have songwriting departments. A good example is Neil Diamond: he started out as a songwriter in a songwriting department, then worked his way to eventually becoming a performer. As a songwriter in a songwriting department, your job is to write songs everyday, and present them to the head of the department, and see what artist can play your song.

The writing pool evolved from being an in-house item, to being outsourced, like how scriptwriting used to be in the old days of moviemaking (the studios would have a kind of “scriptwriting department” that would work with each other and produce hits like ‘Casablanca.’ “

Anyway, the singer/performer is essentially a facade for a well-oiled moneymaking machine, which is the whole object of the system, to bring a return on investment. This has been happening for a very long time. If you have an all-star list of songwriters to choose from, like Diane Warren in pop (she penned hits for Celine Dion and Aerosmith), or in Nashville, or what we’re going to talk about here, a writing pool in hip-hop, it really is no different. An adept producer, like Dr. Dre or Timbaland, has it in their best interest to become the marketer of a songs written by their own writing pool that is specifically signed to their production company, and shop that to different record companies. It is rationally using a group of people’s talents than just one person’s. Your odds of staying in the game are thus increased by having your own ghostwriters, remember... two heads are better than one (or 14, or 20.)

What has taken many of you all aback is that you DID NOT know that this occurs. Well, it really is time to open up your eyes if this is the business you want to be involved in. Everybody wants to be a star, but if I am a record executive, and I need to project decent earnings for the fiscal year, I probably will try to find a “face” rapper to fabricate and use a respected pool of writers (for hip hop and pop) in order to make my pop-rapper appealing, with a chance for crossover of genres. Or, I can see the situation is too encompassed with pop-rappers, and then I can take it the other way and bring in a hardcore rapper, in order to differentiate myself, but still use the same writing pool to pen hits.

With a diverse musical industry, many record executives are usually white and middle-aged, and do not have the taste in regards to hip-hop, but they can have an idea. That’s why production companies are helpful, they are in touch, have their own writing pools (or an A&R rep that has his/her “pulse” on the music of today and hosts a “writing pool” for a record company... usually a one or two deep label.) Utilizing these people to work for the exec at the major will help the exec project earnings better for the next quarter or fiscal year. This is in turn will aid in the parent company’s assessment of their entertainment division, and then possibly aid in an increase in shareholder value.

I think many of you are having a moral issue with this, because it is not what you all expected. It is true, though not always, and usually not in hard rock. However, even Mushroomhead (a hard rock band) covered Seal’s “Crazy,” which was probably a producer or A&R man’s idea. The biggest offender, I believe, in rock, is No Doubt. No Doubt is blessed with the marketability of Gwen Stefani, and their more poppish style change in recent albums was fueled by adept songwriting producers and writing pools. In fact, the band’s first album before their hit “Tragic Kingdom” was all ska. It didn’t sell, but someone saw that Gwen had the image to be a star, and put the band to work with... was it Ric Ocasek? I forgot, but he basically rewrote their album, and penned crossovers for them to make Tragic Kingdom a giant album. I think one original member of the band left because he couldn’t deal with the situation that the band had little control in the music. That’s kind of how you all might be feeling.

The situation is, that people can become extremely wealthy belonging to a writing pool and receiving a royalty. Remember, that being in a writing pool itself is tough, and...

If someone is signed in some capacity to a major, politics is what usually occurs within the pools. In fact, (I DISCLAIM EVERYTHING HEREON-- DON’T DO IT) deals within members of pools occur between them and A&R or whoever is the gatekeeper to the label or song purchaser. Pool members politick with the label execs that have the power to pick their songs. Label execs get illegal kickbacks from the members of the pools in order to get their songs picked by the label, and keep that specific pool member employed (THAT IS WRONG AND I DO NOT SUPPORT IT). If they are pool members through a production company, and are not granted direct access to the label exec., sophistication is required in cutting out the middleman (if necessary.)

Pool members can make become extremely wealthy if they play their cards right. It can be a stepping stone to becoming an acknowledged songwriter, where then you can have your own pool. It depends. Some people use it to get their foot in the door. I feel sorry for songwriters, unless they’re established, because they can lose employment in an instant.

So, I believe that this is a kind of “ego check” for many of you. Do you want to make money and play by the games within the industry? Or do you want to not make money but stay true to yourself?

As I’ve said earlier, the entertainment industry sells AN IMAGE. That is very important, and must be acknowledged. If good music can come with that image, all the better. If that image can be cross promoted with Pepsi, Coca-Cola, or a clothing line, all the better. I suggest many of you should reassess your positions not only artistically, but put on your business hats. It’s a Darwinian affair in all business.

REMEMBER NOT EVERY MUSIC ACT IS LIKE THIS... AT ALL. DO NOT THINK THAT THERE IS NOT A CHANCE FOR A PERSON TO MAKE IT ON THEIR OWN MERIT. But, educate yourselves. Good luck.

Sincerely,
God

YOUR COMMENTS ARE HIGHLY APPRECIATED! Please Post!

 

[TrustNo1]

strait up. Too many people think that since they can make a nice track that they deserve stardom. Who really cares about a producer if he only makes 2 or 3 heaters? Why would a label put money to promote that 1 producer and all that if he can only supply maybe 2 tracks for an artists album. Better to have a bunch of dudes on hand to keep everything in one nice package of a producer pool. it's just business.

 

[da_rippa]

i recently hooked up wit an artist from new york. she unoficially recruited me to a productin pool. well i dont really kno if u could call it a production pool but she gave me an a few other producer's the tracks dat she needed an is goin to pick da best. in dis case da pool doesn't work together. so im basically single handedly struggling to make my beats hotter den da others which happen to be professionals. so far it seems like im da top pick an once my beats on her album itll be heard mainstream. kinda like how mya did wit fallin. or jay-z wit threats. fo now i jus gotta keep it hot. one

 

[God]

uppin'

 

[BeatAssassin]

Man, That some crazy s^&*. I heard of ghostwriters but that like a ghostwriter father. Cool, looking man.

 

[StressWon]

word up I love this post. (i read it again today) GOD is always on point and he is 100% right! And as he stated, this isn't every case, but come on G,,,this kind of thing is currently saturating Pop Music dude. Ghostwriting is big in Hip Hop,,,very big. A friend of mine wrote two joints for a famouse femal rapper back in the mid 90's and was paid nicely,,,even though he took straight up payment which I would of tried to get some royalties and such, but i think he was paid 1500 a piece and dude was a drug addict to everybody's surprise. But anyways, I've always entertained the idea of gettin in a writin pool, but I wouldn't know how to get into one now. Any major connect that I, or a friend had is long gone, but shit, it's a way to make some dough!

 

[BROUSSARD BEATS]

Yep i was with this label and thats whay we did
if i had a rap i would put it in the pool because maybe this other guy sound better doing it
but the only thing i did not like is when you put your song in, it was not yours anymore
Its like if you have a hot arist coming out your job its to make him hotter and make sure he has many verse for other projects even if he wrights himself.
I know alot of people don't wright all thier suff cause i still do it when im in the studio with people now . it can be a hook or a verse
and its the same with beats.

 

[Formant024]

This has always been my impression, i assume there smaller major's like epitaph who have not followed that fashion but all the typical (50, game, em etc), thats all a matter of being picked out of millions of talent, it does not state theyre the best but just exploit how the company directed their artist...and these "artists" think theyre good.

 

[2GooD Productions]

Great post, tells it how it is. Real talk.
It becomes a choice of if you want to make money or not basically. But does this only apply for songwriters?
I know most songs on the radio were written by someone other than the artist performing, thats all part of the "image" package. Some pre made "image" thats been envisioned by someone else, based on what they think will sell and make maximum ROI(return on investment), thats simply business. Business is about making money, full stop.
I think creativity is stifled by the well oiled money making system, when the "artists" lose their creative "art" and have to perform someone elses "workload based on a gamble on what will be popular by the time of release/crap just passed because an exec was bribed" I think that kills the creativity that music in essence is.
Music is an artform, it has become a money cow. And the hiphop udder has been milked dry IMO.
I have long thought that the industry worked in that way, you have made me realise my worse fears are reality.

I wonder, as you are a man in the know. Does much of this stuff apply to music used in TV & Film?
Is there as much politics involved there, or is it a different ballgame? Being as its not strictly songs but instrumentals. And not intended to be any sort of Pop hit. I would assume its different, with some similarities like placement bribes to certain people etc. Im really thinking of taking this route with my music, so any knowledge you have would be greatly appreciated.

 

[God]

Great post, tells it how it is. Real talk.
It becomes a choice of if you want to make money or not basically. But does this only apply for songwriters?
I know most songs on the radio were written by someone other than the artist performing, thats all part of the "image" package. Some pre made "image" thats been envisioned by someone else, based on what they think will sell and make maximum ROI(return on investment), thats simply business. Business is about making money, full stop.
I think creativity is stifled by the well oiled money making system, when the "artists" lose their creative "art" and have to perform someone elses "workload based on a gamble on what will be popular by the time of release/crap just passed because an exec was bribed" I think that kills the creativity that music in essence is.
Music is an artform, it has become a money cow. And the hiphop udder has been milked dry IMO.
I have long thought that the industry worked in that way, you have made me realise my worse fears are reality.

I wonder, as you are a man in the know. Does much of this stuff apply to music used in TV & Film?
Is there as much politics involved there, or is it a different ballgame? Being as its not strictly songs but instrumentals. And not intended to be any sort of Pop hit. I would assume its different, with some similarities like placement bribes to certain people etc. Im really thinking of taking this route with my music, so any knowledge you have would be greatly appreciated.

<I'm not advising you, and disclaim any purported advice in this post.>

The business landscape for soundtracks is different. If you are in TV or film, there is generally a clique that is usually called upon to do the soundtrack. These are people that have done soundtracks before did it by deadline, have all the proper tools to make a soundtrack, and charge a generally reasonable rate to the TV or film producer.

If you want to make soundtracks, and you don't have anyone that can vouch for you to a producer -- consider making a soundtrack for a film student or an indie film. When you prove that you can create music for a 2hr movie, then a producer will look at you differently.

It takes a while to get into the soundtrack game, but yes -- you are correct there are writing pools that cater to soundtracks as well.

The best example is Max Martin and DenniZ PoP. They had pre-made "hits" ready for anyone, and they also sold the "hits" as jingles, TV ads, or even as soundtrack music -- or they sold it as singles for Britney Spears, N'Sync, etc.

The music industry is very cliquish when you get to the higher levels. If people don't know and trust you, or someone doesn't vouch for you, it's tough. But, you have to create a body of work to disprove their fears about you. Like, if I was a producer, why would I pay you 30,000 dollars for the soundtrack of a small film when you haven't created any significant body of work. I will give it to another cat that has some credentials and is "friends" with so and so from my agency.

I think you catch my drift.

SOMETHING THAT I THINK ABOUT: ILLMUZIK
Why don't a couple of you Illmuzik cats make a writing pool? I hear your beats and think that with the right leadership, you guys could make something positive happen in your careers. I'm talking to the cats that are a little more professional rather than the rookies.

The thing about a writing pool is there is a leader, and there is also some form of salary paid by the "head" producer. Obviously you guys can't do this-- but why don't some of you try to come together -- get your egos out of the way, and pen some songs that can make you money.

No -- I will not get involved in any writing pool -- but you should consider uniting your talents, throw away the egos, and try to succeed.

 

[Relic]

I think something along those lines is in the works God, but it could be expanded to what you are saying and sounds like a good idea.

 

[2GooD Productions]

^^^ Yeah business is business, and nothing will ever change that. Looks like I need to engage the business part of the brain, if I have any hope of making music as a living a reality. I know its going to stifle the creativity due to not being able to make the music as Im busy with business matters. I was hoping to get my way into the film/tv market through submitting tracks to a publishing company, not doing full soundtracks(at least not yet anyway). I have a large body of work, just none that have been submitted or used to give me a "credit".
I have been seriously slacking on the promo side of things and just create all the time, hence the large body of work. My main mission is to get my PRS membership and after that I will start submitting my tracks, I have a Music Industry directory so plenty of contacts. And I also need to spend a little time with a music lawyer. Some of these things arent cheap and take saving up.

I wonder if you can answer this one.....
Why is making music so expensive?
just kidding, i dont expect you to answer that.

 

[Relic]

Its an elite club at the top, if you can aford to get there lol

Im with you 2good I would just like to be able to do it as a living and not have to have all the bling, just be able to maintain.

 

[God]

I think something along those lines is in the works God, but it could be expanded to what you are saying and sounds like a good idea.

Good.

I know its going to stifle the creativity due to not being able to make the music as Im busy with business matters.

Just being creative doesn't put food on the table. You have a large body of work already. Start aggressively marketing your music. Start now.

I was hoping to get my way into the film/tv market through submitting tracks to a publishing company, not doing full soundtracks(at least not yet anyway). I have a large body of work, just none that have been submitted or used to give me a "credit".

Submissions may help -- odds are against you. Generally interns, upstarts from the mailroom, or assistants listen and give you the thumbs up or thumbs down on a submission. A lot of submissions get tossed this way. Think about it this way -- you send a submission, and a female assistant, whose favorite music is Jack Johnson or Britney Spears is going to sit down -- under orders from her boss and "judge" whether your heartfelt underground hip-hop jam is good. Let's be realistic -- she'll say "oh gross" and throw it away. Or, she won't listen to it because she's in a hurry to get out and party with her friends at the Highlands.

I have been seriously slacking on the promo side of things and just create all the time, hence the large body of work.

Again -- get out of the house and promote.

My main mission is to get my PRS membership and after that I will start submitting my tracks, I have a Music Industry directory so plenty of contacts. And I also need to spend a little time with a music lawyer. Some of these things arent cheap and take saving up.

Memberships to certain alliances or groups are good -- but as I said with submissions -- it is a crapshoot. The "Music Directory" may give you an outside chance, but you have to develop relationships with people in the music industry. Trust me, if you have something that is produced well, is real fire, someone will pick it up.

Why is making music so expensive?

The money is an automatic gatekeeper. People unwilling to invest the necessary resources in their project will fail. Those who do are kept in the game a bit longer. I actually have an old post about the cost of getting into the biz -- maybe you can search the archives for it.

Consider the following costs and assess how much you would pay:
- Travel
- Photography
- Promo Videos
- Web site
- Lunch, dinners, gifts
- Pamphlets
- Press kit
- Showcases
- Clothes in conjunction with your image
- Tours (food, lodging, gas)
- Press releases (if someone else is doing it)
- Phone bill
- Other promotional material
- Entertainment lawyer
- Copyright attorney

It is really expensive. And people will give you props for the effort you put into it. You're not just some bloke with an MPC that wrote one "hit" and thinks he should be signed because he's entitled to.

 

[Relic]

- Travel
- Photography
- Promo Videos
- Web site
- Lunch, dinners, gifts
- Pamphlets
- Press kit
- Showcases
- Clothes in conjunction with your image
- Tours (food, lodging, gas)
- Press releases (if someone else is doing it)
- Phone bill
- Other promotional material
- Entertainment lawyer
- Copyright attorney



uuuhh I can atest that this gets reeeaallly expensive, thats what has had me "reconsidering"..lol
Honestly I'd love to have all of it back in one big lump sum.

 

[2GooD Productions]

Its okay paying out loads of money, but the risk is, will you get a return on investment.
There is no point paying out all the cash and not getting a return that doesnt even break even.
It seems the market for exploiting wannabe artists is bigger than ever with so many "artists" using the net to "get rich". And so many sites/people exploiting it. With so much money on the line its hard to take that risk, unless you are absolutly sure about your "products" success, and you know you can trust the people you are dealing with.
Its a hard world full of sharks, its hard to find genuine people these days.
As for a few of the illmuzik members getting together. Distance apart is an issue(for simple idea discussions etc), as well getting everyone organized and on a deadline. There is plenty of talent to make it happen, the hard thing is making it happen. Teamwork and pooled resources greatly improves chances of success in a harsh business environment, commitment to a project and its deadline is the key to success there.

 

[Relic]

hehe your right deadlines arent a thing we are good at around here..(Although I'd like to think I get my stuff in rather early)

The lesson that I hear though is of course there is no surity in your hard invested money making any return at all, Thus if you want IN on the business dont make music, exploit those that do, take those dreams and use them to put money in your own pocket!
Think of the people that make studio "foam" for home studios, hell thats all they are doing!

In fact I submit that there is no actual artistry but musicians are "put out" only to keep the side businesses running, as you know, no one WANTS to PAY for music!

 

[God]

2good:

Its okay paying out loads of money, but the risk is, will you get a return on investment.
There is no point paying out all the cash and not getting a return that doesnt even break even.

Then no one would start a small business. Did Mark Cuban who now owns the Dallas Mavericks know that he was going to end up being a billionaire when he started his company? He was a computer salesman.

No risk, no reward.

It seems the market for exploiting wannabe artists is bigger than ever with so many "artists" using the net to "get rich". And so many sites/people exploiting it. With so much money on the line its hard to take that risk, unless you are absolutly sure about your "products" success, and you know you can trust the people you are dealing with.

You can't be sure about a product's success. The industry has tried to measure the hit potential of a song through focus groups. Such a method is fallible and is often wrong in cases where they are not testing for soft rock or pop appeal.

You're right about the big business of people selling products to dreamers. Look at Guitar Center, look at MySpace or similar "musically geared" web sites. The situation is similar to the gold rush in America. The people who made the most money were the people selling shovels and picks to the prospectors.

You also can't let that stop you. Did Kurt Cobain know he was going to be a star?

Its a hard world full of sharks, its hard to find genuine people these days.

Don't be that cynical. Although you're a hundred percent right: yes, the world is full of hustlers and sharks. You know this, it's a fact of life -- now use your knowledge to your advantage. Outshark the sharks.

As for a few of the illmuzik members getting together. Distance apart is an issue(for simple idea discussions etc), as well getting everyone organized and on a deadline. There is plenty of talent to make it happen, the hard thing is making it happen. Teamwork and pooled resources greatly improves chances of success in a harsh business environment, commitment to a project and its deadline is the key to success there.

I was just throwing ideas out there.


RELIC

hehe your right deadlines arent a thing we are good at around here..(Although I'd like to think I get my stuff in rather early)

The lesson that I hear though is of course there is no surity in your hard invested money making any return at all, Thus if you want IN on the business dont make music, exploit those that do, take those dreams and use them to put money in your own pocket!
Think of the people that make studio "foam" for home studios, hell thats all they are doing!

In fact I submit that there is no actual artistry but musicians are "put out" only to keep the side businesses running, as you know, no one WANTS to PAY for music!

It's possible to be an artist that makes a living for themselves. There are many touring acts that make $40,000+ per person per year.

If you don't want to be a musician, and want to make foam (just an example) that's great. But seeking the right path in life is also about doing what you like. What are you really good at? Is it music? Or is it math? Is it biology? I don't know-- but there is something every person is good at, that's what you're naturally "talented" in. You should try experimenting in that field (maybe you kick ass at writing?)

In any case, many people bark up the music tree because they want stardom and "instant" success that will take them from the ghettoes to the high life. Reality check-- it doesn't work that way. There is no quick fix. Stories of "instant stars" are generally manufactured (though not all), many of the stars worked for years to make it.

Are you in it for the money? The fame? If you want money, becoming a doctor in the U.S. guarantees you an upper middle class income. A college education in "hard sciences" like math, computer programming, etc., bring you real income.

If you're in it for the music. Keep making music. Just be aware at how the commercial music world operates. Use that knowledge and then make decisions based on reality, not hopeful dreams.

Also, when I'm saying "you" in this post, Relic, I'm not talking to you personally, persay-- I'm using the word "you" as a general term.

 

[Relic]

Oh sure exactly I got you , thats all I was saying as well though is that exploiting those who have the "dream" to me would appear to be the "Industry", which encompasses everything from making software to mics to foam to A&R and record distributors and whatnot. Sort of an epiphany.lol
I am following you G!

Like the shovels and pics thing you say above is all.

 

[LDB]

If you're in it for the music. Keep making music. Just be aware at how the commercial music world operates. Use that knowledge and then make decisions based on reality, not hopeful dreams.

^^^^^OUT OF EVERYTHING HE SAID THIS SHOULD BE THE KICKER^^^^^

Do what you do and if the money comes it comes! You could have a lot worse habbit/hobby than making music!
I've been doing this sooooo long that if MONEY was the driving force I would not be doing it. YOU HAVE TO LOVE IT FIRST!